SWP expulsions and squabbles

[belboid]

From Socialist Worker's special Class War tribute issue, I presume: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...s-reason-to-save-the-polar-bears-9597931.html

made the Mail's front page

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cking-death-Eton-pupil-mauled-polar-bear.html

 

[J Ed]

Bit of an overreaction there! Amazing what (upper) class solidarity gets you...

 

[J Ed]

I don't like the joke but seeing this overreaction and the behaviour of the left commentariat as quoted in the Mail article... and the fact that the kid was called Horatio Chapple... I no longer give a shit. At least Horatio's family don't have to put up with the sort of defamation in newspapers that people actually read, including the Mail, that the Duggan family had to put up with.

Stockport councillor Iain Roberts, a Liberal Democrat, said: ‘Saw the article this morning – disgusting that Socialist Worker is gleefully crowing over the death of a child.
'Was glad to see others on the Left also appalled.’

lol

 

[comrade spurski]

Roar said the lion. On a brighter note least you didn't defend the idea that having swpers on your FB wall is on a par with nazis.

Let's be clear here this little flurry of excitement was about whether folk should have FB friends who are also friends with the main culprits. So people like Holborrow were getting deleted by the furious ones. Fair enough, if they find PH that annoying then by all means block him. But the moral outrage at finding one is still his friend on FB is just childish. In the real world I'd quite happily stand with any of them or PH or 99% of the folk on here on any numbers of pickets or demos and not jump out of my skin at finding myself next to them, so finding them next to me on FB seems even less startling. A minority of them might feel the need to scream rape apologist at swpers before, during or after everyone links arms against the police or the nazis or whoever but I respectfully suggest that five years from now anyone who is still doing that will just be seen as a little odd, if only because that tone of moral outrage doesn't match what most people who work with swpers know about them. They may get up people's noses but any honest appraisal doesn't include the phrase rape apologist or misogynist or any of the other nonsense being thrown at people whose actual track records over decades suggests the opposite.

never said that in the first place...just told you you were a hypocrite...people find out all kinds of shit about their family and friends that disturbs them and their sense of values...you mock those who are disturbed by having people associated with them on facebook who;
a) are members of a party who behaved so appalling to at least 2 women who have said they were raped by a leading member of that party
b) are members of a party that refuses to accept it has done any wrong.
and while you mock them you have a meltdown on here cos your sister voted/joined the BNP...I had no issue with that at the time...never said anything about it until you started calling people childish and mocking them.

you keep on twisting things but and ignoring simple truths...YOU called it a case of bad sex...and then came on here saying you were wrong cos you had heard new info...now what ever your view on the rape allegations, calling them a case of bad sex is disgusting right wing filth...the swp's behaviour (friends investigating delta; the lies; the standing ovation; the questioning of the victims; the moving of victims from a job when delta was kept in a position of power in the party) are also disgusting right wing filthy behaviour...that's why people who hate rape now hate the swp...

I have never called the swp rape apologists ... I do however think the behaviour of the swp goes completely against the grain of socialism so have no understanding of how any socialists can be in the organisation.


everytime you write on here you come across as an arrogant prick who sees themselves as superior to the rest of us...and as some one incapable of engaging in an argument with out twisting things to suit your own twisted agenda. You chose to stay in a politically bankrupt party so live.

why not do all of us a favour and simply enjoy the company of your comrades who also refuse to accept that the swp has behaved despicably.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Fair enough, some conversations just don't go anywhere useful and this is probably one of them, least we've stopped swearing at each other. Mind you there have been some useful convos on this thread and I'm pretty sure people will keep talking in the real world whatever the online explosions. Good to see Birchall is speaking at Marxism.

 

[quiquaquo]

Could the establishment have chosen anyone better at damaging the Left from the inside than Callinicos?

 

[belboid]

Could the establishment have chosen anyone better at damaging the Left from the inside than Callinicos?

Smith

 

[Lo Siento.]

Im trying to bring you guys into it, out of your political wank fantasies

none more fantastic that the idea that we'll reclaim the Labour Party.

 

[JHE]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...s-reason-to-save-the-polar-bears-9597931.html

A bear of that sort is bound to polarise opinion.

(BTW, I see the dear old Guardian, the paper of the lower-case social workers, reports that the bear's violent outburst resulted from the furry creature being in pain and stressed, poor thing.)

 

[treelover]

that Martin Smith was guilty at the very least of exploiting his status within the sect to take advantage sexually of naive young women members and that for a long time his chums at the top of the sect were devoted to protecting him despite his predatory behaviour.

Not just Smith, it was the M.O for many of the SWP's senior cadres

one can argue that these women had autonomy, etc but I've spoken to a few since and they do feel they made mistakes, etc.

 

[laptop]

That's odd.

I was going to link to yesterday's Guardian Diary item about the trouble the Social Workers are having getting venues for Marksism.
...
#creepingfeminism shows up in a search of the Guardian website, but links to today's Diary, not yesterday's, which appears to have vanished entirely. Obviously for an entirely unconnected reason. But remind me to get it out of the recycling!

It's back, redacted: quoted for the purposes of criticism and review:

Fresh headaches for the beleaguered SWP as ex-party members work to sabotage their annual Marxism conference. Plagued by multiple controversies, party officials were counting on this event, reportedly RSVP'd by 2,000 people, to be a roaring success and to boost morale. Alas, detractors have been pressuring venues to withdraw permission. They have also been reminding would-be speakers and performers of the party's cack-handed handling of rape allegations levelled against senior officials. The saboteurs, mainly students, call themselves SWP Off Campus and have adopted the hashtag #creepingfeminism. A touch of feminism in the SWP would be a fine, fine thing, they say.

• This article was amended on 10 July 2014 to remove a sentence which said the after-party for the Marxism conference hosted by the Socialist Workers party had been cancelled. The SWP says it is going ahead.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/08/hugh-muir-diary-president-tony-blair-sisi

If they pulled it while rewriting, that suggest the Social Workers threatened to sue!

 

[belboid]

Not just Smith, it was the M.O for many of the SWP's senior cadres

one can argue that these women had autonomy, etc but I've spoken to a few since and they do feel they made mistakes, etc.

fibber

 

[treelover]

How may people do you reckon are going to the event?

 

[SpineyNorman]

What have the SWP achieved then?

Got a very good councilor elected in Shirebrook who managed to stop a couple of especially barking labour initiatives, did some excellent casework and put such a rocket up the arses of the incompetent (and a less charitable man than I might say corrupt) labour councilors - many of whom had never even been challenged in an election before - that they got off their arses and actually did a thing or two to help people living in what must be one of the biggest shitholes in the country.

 

[killer b]

Not just Smith, it was the M.O for many of the SWP's senior cadres

one can argue that these women had autonomy, etc but I've spoken to a few since and they do feel they made mistakes, etc.

no you haven't.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Not just Smith, it was the M.O for many of the SWP's senior cadres

one can argue that these women had autonomy, etc but I've spoken to a few since and they do feel they made mistakes, etc.

Jesus H Christ on a stick

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Got a very good councilor elected in Shirebrook who managed to stop a couple of especially barking labour initiatives, did some excellent casework and put such a rocket up the arses of the incompetent (and a less charitable man than I might say corrupt) labour councilors - many of whom had never even been challenged in an election before - that they got off their arses and actually did a thing or two to help people living in what must be one of the biggest shitholes in the country.

I'm struggling to see how that is much of an achievement compared to the SP who have had 5 or 6 good councillors at various times, not to mention Labour, Libdems, Tories and various independent groups who have had decent councillors at various times on a much larger basis than one ward

Also how much was the Shirebrook result down to the SWP and how much down to a couple of really good individuals who weren't even taken seriously by their own party?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Haha god but you're bitter

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Haha god but you're bitter

Not at all, nothing to be bitter about the only time I come across SWP members is when they're standing in the rain clutching a sheaf of soggy papers on the latest pointless march

 

[Karmickameleon]

What have the SWP achieved then?

That's actually a good question -given the neverending downward spiral in which the party is engaged -and one which deserves some discussion here. Apart from the solitary councillor mentioned above, I would hazard the following as achievements:

1. Successes in the anti-racist/fascist field against the NF, BNP etc
2. Keeping alive a certain vision of "socialism from below" during the Cold War period, when others succumbed to variants of Stalinism.
3. Although it didn't of course stop the invasion of Iraq, playing a key role in organising one of the biggest demos (if not the biggest) that the country has ever seen.
4. And one the loyalist won't agree with: having recruited many members who - although they/we have since left and are highly critical of the SWP and its current leadership - remain committed socialists and retain something of that "socialism from below" vision.

 

[treelover]

Socialism from below, like Harman's 'footsoldiers'

btw, I was not claiming senior SWP cadres raped/abused women, but that they took advantage of the relative power imbalance to pursue young women, often in a predatory way.

some of whom I know regret these relationships.

 

[belboid]

Socialism from below, like Harman's 'footsoldiers'

btw, I was not claiming senior SWP cadres raped/abused women, but that they took advantage of the relative power imbalance to pursue young women, often in a predatory way.

some of whom I know regret these relationships.

liar

 

[killer b]

Did they make you sing the Internationale before confiding in you treelover ?

 

[Blagsta]

Don't we all have relationships we regret?

 

[october_lost]

What have the SWP achieved then?

The ANL, co-ordinating and nominally training a plethora of workplace militants, successfully rebranded a particular style of leftism that survived after the collapse of the Russian experiment, in addition to having contributed and popularised themes to, and within Marxist theory.

There is an argument to say that CAMRA is the most successful leftist initiative (I kid you not!) but the SWP are easily the most successful leftist group in post-war UK. The various pieces of flotsam and jetsam that most have us have traversed through haven't got anywhere close - which unfortunately says a lot about the state of revolutionary politics in general, in the UK.

 

[JHE]

There is an argument to say that CAMRA is the most successful leftist initiative (I kid you not!)...

Not much of an argument. Protz abandoned the lost cause of Trottery for the very different and much more modest world of consumer campaigning. CAMRA may be a worthy cause (though why anyone would choose real ale over real lager is baffling to me - do people really like the taste of yeast?) and may have more than its fair share of the beardy weirdy types who also drone on at left-wing meetings and at greenie gatherings, but CAMRA's cause is not leftist. If anything, it's (small-c) conservative.

 

[belboid]

(though why anyone would choose real ale over real lager is baffling to me - do people really like the taste of yeast?)

the only real ale that tasted of yeastI've ever drunk was from my dad's homebrew. Real ale tastes of hops and/or malt, not lager's piss.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

That's actually a good question -given the neverending downward spiral in which the party is engaged -and one which deserves some discussion here. Apart from the solitary councillor mentioned above, I would hazard the following as achievements:

1. Successes in the anti-racist/fascist field against the NF, BNP etc
2. Keeping alive a certain vision of "socialism from below" during the Cold War period, when others succumbed to variants of Stalinism.
3. Although it didn't of course stop the invasion of Iraq, playing a key role in organising one of the biggest demos (if not the biggest) that the country has ever seen.
4. And one the loyalist won't agree with: having recruited many members who - although they/we have since left and are highly critical of the SWP and its current leadership - remain committed socialists and retain something of that "socialism from below" vision.

4. I will give you

 

[belboid]

you can hardly deny 3, either, even if you also think they then pissed all that support away

(1 and 2 are at least partially true too, imo, tho I'm notsurprised you dont agree )

 

[SpackleFrog]

[QUOTE="Karmickameleon, post: 13265308, member: 60774" Although it didn't of course stop the invasion of Iraq, playing a key role in organising one of the biggest demos (if not the biggest) that the country has ever seen
[/QUOTE]

This may be controversial but... I'm not sure you can credit SW with organising the demo's exactly - doing all the admin maybe, but not actually getting millions on the streets. Would likely have happened anyway. Speculation of course...

What's not speculation is that leading SWP members blocked with the more conservative elements of STW to rule out tactics such as strikes and direct action against the war - significant when we remember that elements of the FBU were suggesting coordinated strike action as a tactic for the anti-war movement.

My first political experience of the SWP and of activism full stop really was those demo's, and I well remember the SWP members who assumed control of STW branches full of willing but naive people and continuously insisted that all that was needed was more marches, more marches, more marches.

The SWP have achieved things - I'm not convinced that the likes of Rees and German should be as smug about their contribution to the anti-war movement as they are.