SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Horas]

isn't the prof the grandson of lord acton?
proleterian my arse.

 

[treelover]

what bothers me about these unprincipled alliances, such as getting jackie kennedy to speak at the big stwc rally back then, . is that nothing seems to be gained from it. it gave the impression that the lib dems were more left than they really were, and this illusion only ended with the end of cleggomania. also speaking on that demo was imran khan, the former pakistani cricketer and millionaire, also bianca jagger. i am not sure what was the point of promoting these people. what is worse, however, is the left doesn't seem to gain anything from these tactics.

as an ardent activist at that time, i am sure i am not the only one who felt that all my actvist work was in the end used to bolster the support of people i don't support ie lib dems, left labour etc, imran khan, bianca jagger etc.
i wonder if some of this behaviour is due to a great lack of faith in ordinary people, that ordinary people need a celeb to tell them something to give it credibility.

Agree with you about L/D's, maybe Khan, but Jagger is now just a human rights workers, albeit one with a very distinguished record.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm struggling to see how that is much of an achievement compared to the SP who have had 5 or 6 good councillors at various times, not to mention Labour, Libdems, Tories and various independent groups who have had decent councillors at various times on a much larger basis than one ward

Also how much was the Shirebrook result down to the SWP and how much down to a couple of really good individuals who weren't even taken seriously by their own party?

I was responding to someone saying they'd never achieved anything in their whole existence by saying that was bullshit. You then asked me what they'd achieved and I gave you an example. I never said I thought they were any good, they're not. The Shirebrook election was most definitely an SWP effort - it had to be the amount of canvassing that had to be done to win it.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Photo of the Prof's meeting at Marxism. It would appear to show a somewhat ageing audience, which is surely bad news for a supposedly revolutionary party (or are the students all standing at the back?):

Dont be cruel, me and my mum are in that pic and our combined age is only 125.

 

[Pickman's model]

Photo of the Prof's meeting at Marxism. It would appear to show a somewhat ageing audience, which is surely bad news for a supposedly revolutionary party (or are the students all standing at the back?):

they were a bunch of keen students when they went in

by the time they left they were all geriatric

 

[redcogs]

etcetera etcetera etcetera..

went up like a rocket - but fell like a stick.

 

[redcogs]

any green shoots of recovery yet?

 

[chilango]

i guess thats true. i noticed that when people 'become' anarchists, they tend to swear a lot more than they did previously, there is a certain anarchist swagger, effing this, effing that. I think this is mostly through the influence of Ian Bone. many of the people, in both socialist and anarchist groups, are university educated and probably not so poor, but feel a need to show their proleterian credentials by putting on a fake accent and swearing

Fuck off. That's bollocks.

 

[DotCommunist]

they were a bunch of keen students when they went in

by the time they left they were all geriatric

 

[Karmickameleon]

any green shoots of recovery yet?

From Facebook, I gathered that 608 people were at the opening rally. This isn't a disaster, but isn't particularly good either - given that the leadership made a major effort to get people there this year. Also, as I pointed out above, many of those in attendance seem to be getting on a bit...

BTW, just in case you missed it, this is a good article from Owen Jones on the SWP's Class War turn:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...vy-socialist-worker-article-polar-bear-attack

 

[comrade spurski]

In the late 1990s and early 2000's Marxism used to get between 6,000 and 7,500 people who bought tickets to go (according to the SWP).
In 1997 SE London SWP signed up over 230 people to go ... I know that figure was accurate so I can imagine that the above stats are pretty accurate give or take a bit of creative counting

The figures have continuously dropped from 2000 onwards and until I stopped going in 2008 or 2009 it was getting visibly smaller every year.
It also looked older each year, more male and more white...none of which suggests it was an organisation in healthy state.
2000 is the figure being bandied around for this years event which is a problem as I suspect the creative accounting continues so the true figure is probably a couple hundred lower.

Marxism being a third of the size it was 17 years ago, when we have suffered 4 years of Tory austerity, doesn't suggest that the SWP is growing and building...it suggests it has spent a shit load of energy simply to regroup

 

[quiquaquo]

In the late 1990s and early 2000's Marxism used to get between 6,000 and 7,500 people who bought tickets to go (according to the SWP).
In 1997 SE London SWP signed up over 230 people to go ... I know that figure was accurate so I can imagine that the above stats are pretty accurate give or take a bit of creative counting

The figures have continuously dropped from 2000 onwards and until I stopped going in 2008 or 2009 it was getting visibly smaller every year.
It also looked older each year, more male and more white...none of which suggests it was an organisation in healthy state.
2000 is the figure being bandied around for this years event which is a problem as I suspect the creative accounting continues so the true figure is probably a couple hundred lower.

Marxism being a third of the size it was 17 years ago, when we have suffered 4 years of Tory austerity, doesn't suggest that the SWP is growing and building...it suggests it has spent a shit load of energy simply to regroup

What year did Callinicos become leader?

 

[comrade spurski]

No idea mate...was never in the in crowd

 

[Karmickameleon]

It also looked older each year, more male and more white...none of which suggests it was an organisation in healthy state.

Which reminds me of something I saw on Twitter at the beginning of Marxism. It went something like this: Why are so many old white dudes wandering around SOAS? Must be Marxism 2014.

 

[Karmickameleon]

What year did Callinicos become leader?

Surely it was -de facto- at the end of 2009 or beginning of 2010. Rees and German were ousted from the CC in January 2009. Smith had led the charge against the two while both Harman and Callinicos were reticent as they thought that it might lead to a major split. In the event, the Counterfire split was minor compared to what we have seen recently (all of which shows how out of touch the leadership can be).
Harman died in November 2009, which left Callinicos and - to a lesser extent - Smith as major players. But then -as we all know - the latter would soon have problems on another front.....

 

[quiquaquo]

Surely it was -de facto- at the end of 2009 or beginning of 2010. Rees and German were ousted from the CC in January 2009. Smith had led the charge against the two while both Harman and Callinicos were reticent as they thought that it might lead to a major split. In the event, the Counterfire split was minor compared to what we have seen recently (all of which shows how out of touch the leadership can be).
Harman died in November 2009, which left Callinicos and - to a lesser extent - Smith as major players. But then -as we all know - the latter would soon have problems on another front.....

Thanks for the info. Have never been close to the SWP but surely after his disastrous leadership the membership can give him the boot or do the dissenters just get kicked until only the CC remain?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Thanks for the info. Have never been close to the SWP but surely after his disastrous leadership the membership can give him the boot or do the dissenters just get kicked until only the CC remain?

In theory, he could of course be removed. In practice, that possibility ended when the opposition were finally defeated and the remaining core membership consists of loyalists to the existing leadership.

 

[Karmickameleon]

In theory, he could of course be removed. In practice, that possibility ended when the opposition were finally defeated and the remaining core membership consists of loyalists to the existing leadership.

Yes, that is the long and short of it and could represent a suitable conclusion to this particular thread. However, until the SWP is dead and buried, I guess we'll have things to discuss here.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Glass half full

 

[belboid]

Glass half full

Brain half empty

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Brain half empty

brain?

 

[belboid]

brain?

Half?!

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I don't think Callinicos has ever been considered or considered himself to be the Leader of the SWP. He is more a theoretician more particularly on International political issues. Often the editor of the paper is considered to be the top dog. That is currently Judith Orr. She is strongly feminist as well as socialist but I have never seen a comment from her on the "Delta issue" although I doubt she has any sympathy for "Delta". The party is effectively defunct as far as I can see. I used to go to Marxism but not in the last two years.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

That'll be news to Judith, that she's a feminist.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Lol belboid but the rest of the far left have been telling cliffites they're brain dead since at least the 60's. At least back then the IMG were actually clever little shits, the ones doing it now haven't got a novel idea between them.

 

[comrade spurski]

the problem with BB's arguments (imo) is that he does not comprehend how many people do not understand how socialists can respond to rape allegations in the way that the swp did.
People on the left (understandably and correctly) expect a high level of honesty and integrity from others on the left and the swp failed miserably on this account.
Not only that the swp sort to hide in two ways;
1) by pretending those not in the swp were all sectarian and
2) by dressing it up as "politics"...a continuation of the splits after the demise of respect etc. and internally feminist politics distorting the swp's view of womens liberation...
this led to the swp battening down the hatches publishing long winded articles/essays which completely missed the point.

the swp and those in it should know better and it is this that pisses off so many people. They betrayed a central plank of socialism with their behaviour to the women involved yet chose to pretend that it was sectarians; wayward members; the press; and creeping feminism that caused their crisis....and this is why they fail to understand why people want it to die and die quickly.

I know some people on here have always hated/ mistrusted the swp but BB seems to think that this is what lays behind their criticism which is borderline childish imo.
I think that the swp is a way of life for many of their long standing members and that is why they cling to it so desperately...I thought any organisation was a tool and when a tool is broken you get rid of it and make/buy a new one rather than continuously use a sticky plaster to patch it up

 

[Karmickameleon]

I don't think Callinicos has ever been considered or considered himself to be the Leader of the SWP. He is more a theoretician more particularly on International political issues. Often the editor of the paper is considered to be the top dog. That is currently Judith Orr. She is strongly feminist as well as socialist but I have never seen a comment from her on the "Delta issue" although I doubt she has any sympathy for "Delta". The party is effectively defunct as far as I can see. I used to go to Marxism but not in the last two years.

Callincos has been on the CC for as long as I can remember. For the loyalists, he represents the continuation of the Cliff, Hallas, Harman tradition. Whatever his talents as a theoretician, his leadership qualities were shown to be more than lacking in the Delta scandal, in which he demonstrated both cowardice and dishonesty. As for Judith Orr, she certainly wouldn't describe herself as a feminist and showed herself to be one of the hardline Delta supporters.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I think we can all agree there are no feminists on the CC

 

[Pickman's model]

I think we can all agree there are no feminists on the CC

and precious few within even the nether reaches of the party

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Problem is spurski it's not just one or the other, it's both. Yes the delta disaster was the catalyst but yes there were also many political differences brewing beforehand. Fond as I am of many who ended up in both the isn and rs21 the arguments they have advanced since leaving only bear that out. The warmed up academic feminism of the iso didn't just happen by accident either, it predates delta and it's getting a hearing here isn't all down to moral outrage at delta. The truth is IS tendency groups and their members have always shaded at one end into movementist types and at the other into unpleasant workerists with most members somewhere in between. It's the nature of the best, trying to keep so many different ideas spinning at once. But like it or not the prof and the cadre at the core of the party are the ones still doing that.