SWP expulsions and squabbles

[comrade spurski]

if the swp had not acted in such an appalling way there would not have been at least two women treated badly by socialists that they'd turned to for help and support and (on a less important note) there would not have been press coverage; internet rows; campaigns against the swp etc.
There undoubtedly would have been people leaving; some more splits etc. and these could have been debated and dismissed until the cows come home and many many people wouldn't be interested. The simple fact is that you fail to see the blatant truth that is obvious to others...the swp acted disgracefully and any socialist organisation that behaves in such a way deserves all the criticism it gets...and deserves to die.
I know there were differences... but they are irrelevant...the only relevant fact is that the swp chose to protect delta rather than support the women he was accused of raping/abusing and no amount of smoke and mirrors can change that one very simple fact

 

[Lurdan]

The truth is IS tendency groups and their members have always shaded at one end into movementist types and at the other into unpleasant workerists with most members somewhere in between.

"Tell me, Mr. Strachey, what would you do if you saw a German soldier trying to violate your sister?"
"I would try to get between them."

 

[Trappist]

Reluctantly sticking my toe into the mire at page 586:

if the swp had not acted in such an appalling way...

Can't speak for every member, but I don't think there are many who think we didn't f*ck up majorly. In more ways than we care to count.

...the only relevant fact is that the swp chose to protect delta rather than support the women he was accused of raping/abusing and no amount of smoke and mirrors can change that one very simple fact

Except, of course, it isn't a fact. Delta was forced out by the second case.

Other relevant [?] facts:

Not only did the SWP make changes to its procedures to try to overcome the shortcomings that had been highlighted, but it also published the proposed procedures in advance of the conference.

On top of this Socialist Worker carried an apology to the two women involved.

Not enough, perhaps, but public apologies by far left groups - how many have you seen?

 

[belboid]

Lol belboid but the rest of the far left have been telling cliffites they're brain dead since at least the 60's. At least back then the IMG were actually clever little shits, the ones doing it now haven't got a novel idea between them.

that's just not true tho, no one called the SWP 'brain dead' - they were always slagged off as the intellectuals more interested in theory than 'real' work. The others obviously disagreed with those theories, but (WRP excluded) couldnt just dismiss them as nonsense. The drivel spoken to justify the Smith disgrace was just embarassing, the theoretical twists and turns since, convince no one, probably not even half the membership. They're dead.

 

[belboid]

Reluctantly sticking my toe into the mire at page 586:


Can't speak for every member, but I don't think there are many who think we didn't f*ck up majorly. In more ways than we care to count.

Except, of course, it isn't a fact. Delta was forced out by the second case.

Other relevant [?] facts:

Not only did the SWP make changes to its procedures to try to overcome the shortcomings that had been highlighted, but it also published the proposed procedures in advance of the conference.

On top of this Socialist Worker carried an apology to the two women involved.

Not enough, perhaps, but public apologies by far left groups - how many have you seen?

oh please, the 'apology' had to be dragged screaming from you, and it wasn't even an apology,merely a recognition that things hadn't gone very well. It satisfied no one. If you think it did, you are kidding yourself.

Also, Martin Smith (give the cunt his real name) wasn't forced out, he chose to jump, and your lot were happy just so it didn't rip you apart even more. That isn't any kind of justice - when cops do it (resign/retire before being disciplined) the party complains, but when it's one of your own... And, just like with ex-coppers, plenty of party members are still supporting Smith, thru his shitty website, MA, and crappy DJing.

Not to mention that your party is now led by those members who fought desperately and utterly dishonestly to protect the rapist, not one of whom has an ounce of sense. Amy Leather is your future.

You're dead.

 

[Trappist]

2000 is the figure being bandied around for this years event which is a problem as I suspect the creative accounting continues so the true figure is probably a couple hundred lower.

Difficult to judge the size of the whole event from just observation, but I'd agree with well over 500 at the opening rally. Given that it was on a Thursday evening I'd also have expected three to five times that number to turn up over the weekend.

BTW, I made a point of checking out the gender/age/race mix because I was concerned that the splits of the last year might have had severe effects in these areas.

Yes, there were fewer students than the last few years, but otherwise the age gradient seemed reasonably even. Insofar as it's possible to judge by appearance

There also seemed to be a good proportion of women. More in some meetings than others, but always well represented as speakers both on platforms and from the floor.

As always, disappointed we couldn't draw more BEM people, but proportion not significantly different to previous years.

Marxism being a third of the size it was 17 years ago, when we have suffered 4 years of Tory austerity, doesn't suggest that the SWP is growing and building...it suggests it has spent a shit load of energy simply to regroup

A really depressing statistic. If there was a left organisation capable of pulling those sorts of numbers today I'd be thinking about joining it. The fact that the SWP is regrouping at all after the few years it's gone through is enough to keep me slugging away for a while yet.

 

[Trappist]

You're dead.

So you keep saying and yet we're still here and still alive. How irritating!

 

[belboid]

The WRP are technically still here,so what? They're dead. All that remains of them is all that remains of you, being a minor irritant.

I note you can't deny anything else that I wrote.

 

[belboid]

At the strike demo last week the Socialist Appeal sellers were younger than any of those from the SWP. Socialist Appeal.

 

[Trappist]

oh please, the 'apology' had to be dragged screaming from you, and it wasn't even an apology,merely a recognition that things hadn't gone very well. It satisfied no one. If you think it did, you are kidding yourself.

We are sorry for the suffering caused to them by the structural flaws in our disputes procedures, the way in which the two cases became a subject of political conflict within the party and slurs on the internet.

Looks like an apology for something more than "things hadn't gone very well." Did it satisfy everybody? Hell no! But there it is nevertheless.

Also, Martin Smith (give the cunt his real name) wasn't forced out, he chose to jump

So he just woke up one morning and chose to leave, for no reason at all?

That isn't any kind of justice - when cops do it (resign/retire before being disciplined) the party complains, but when it's one of your own...

True, it wasn't justice, but then the heaviest sanction the SWP has is to expel someone. When cops are permitted to resign they don't just avoid a hearing they also get substantial financial benefits.

The WRP are technically still here,so what? They're dead. All that remains of them is all that remains of you, being a minor irritant.

Not convincing.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

At the strike demo last week the Socialist Appeal sellers were younger than any of those from the SWP. Socialist Appeal.

They may be younger but with about 350 members nationally they are even weaker than the SWP.

 

[belboid]

Looks like an apology for something more than "things hadn't gone very well." Did it satisfy everybody? Hell no! But there it is nevertheless.

It doesn't look like that to non-members.

So he just woke up one morning and chose to leave, for no reason at all?

he left becausde there was too much shit flying around, at least this way some people still refer to him as 'Comrade Delta' rather than Martin Smith.

True, it wasn't justice, but then the heaviest sanction the SWP has is to expel someone. When cops are permitted to resign they don't just avoid a hearing they also get substantial financial benefits.

financial benefits like getting you Phd paid for you?

Not convincing.

no, you're not.

 

[belboid]

They may be younger but with about 350 members nationally they are even weaker than the SWP.

I doubt it's that many. But the thng is, they were always the old farts, who made the CPB look young. Now they're younger than the SWP! Not good news for the latter.

 

[Trappist]

financial benefits like getting you Phd paid for you?

Make your mind up - is it an MA or a PhD?

 

[belboid]

Make your mind up - is it an MA or a PhD?

once again, you pick up on the irrelevant part. Almost as if you have no answers for the substantive part.

You've learnt nothing from this debacle.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I doubt it's that many. But the thng is, they were always the old farts, who made the CPB look young. Now they're younger than the SWP! Not good news for the latter.

To be fair nobody under 60 years old has any memory of Socialism being even discussed let alone being practised in any of its forms.

 

[Trappist]

once again, you pick up on the irrelevant part. Almost as if you have no answers for the substantive part.

You've learnt nothing from this debacle.

Simply trying to establish the facts - one minute it's an MA next it's a paid for PhD.

If you can't be consistent about the course why should I believe you know anything about how it's funded?

 

[Trappist]

It doesn't look like that to non-members.

Actually it does, because that is what it is. Also, it was certainly read that way by the non-members I sell SW to at work.

he left becausde there was too much shit flying around, at least this way some people still refer to him as 'Comrade Delta' rather than Martin Smith.

Nope. There was a ton of shit flying around before he left, but he didn't leave until a decision was made to proceed with the case. It was the prospect of that hearing that forced him to leave. It wasn't an accident or a random event it was the decision of the Central Committee to proceed after the Disputes Committee had been deadlocked.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Martin "Delta" Smith has apparently not escaped into anonymity. He was given a place at Liverpool Hope University to take a PhD paid for by people connected to the SWP, It was arranged by Michael Lavalette who is a professor at the university and also a well known supporter of the SWP. There is a website calling itself Delta Removals which is creating publicity around Martin's alleged misdemeanors and it seems that female students in particular have reacted against him. The last information on this I could find on the internet is about 12 months old. Go search. I fear that Smith will drag Lavalette down with him when he is exposed.

Update from the Delta Removals blog dated November 2013 :

"It has now come to the attention of the Delta Removals campaign that Smith has been put on a distance learning course, meaning that he will only be attending campus infrequently, and may well not be staying in the Liverpool area. This information comes from an anonymous but trusted source.

It is worth emphasising that Hope University – unlike the other two universities in Liverpool – does not currently have a distance learningprogramme. As Smith was on campus at the start of our campaign, this distance learning placement has therefore been created specifically for him following our activities."
"

 

[Trappist]

He was given a place at Liverpool Hope University to take a PhD paid for by people connected to the SWP

You really should take Critical Reading 101. The blog you mention does not even suggest the PhD is being paid for by anyone connected to the SWP. Rather it claims that it is a funded PhD. I am unable to see any evidence in it that justifies such a claim.

 

[quiquaquo]

Either way with the alleged sexual offences, free courses from mates and book sales for the Dear Leader the rot is certainly from the head.

Total betrayal of the membership and the Left in general, Mi5 couldn't have done a better job than Callinicos and his fellow toffs.

 

[Trappist]

Either way with the alleged sexual offences, free courses from mates and book sales for the Dear Leader the rot is certainly from the head.

Total betrayal of the membership and the Left in general, Mi5 couldn't have done a better job than Callinicos and his fellow toffs.

Random insults, no concern to check facts, I can see where the rot sets in.

 

[quiquaquo]

Sleaze is what you get with toffs, never changes.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

that's just not true tho, no one called the SWP 'brain dead' - they were always slagged off as the intellectuals more interested in theory than 'real' work. The others obviously disagreed with those theories, but (WRP excluded) couldnt just dismiss them as nonsense. The drivel spoken to justify the Smith disgrace was just embarassing, the theoretical twists and turns since, convince no one, probably not even half the membership. They're dead.

belboid, that's the exact inverse of the truth. As long ago as 1979 Ian Birchall (ironically) felt the need to write his 'Premature Burial' piece to defend the is/swp against Martin Shaw's claims (echoed by most of the far left) that Cliffites were workerist, anti-woman and lacking in internal democracy (a polite way of saying brain dead). This crap ain't new, please stop pretending it is.

Welcome to the thread Trappist, expect a warm reception from the folks here

 

[belboid]

belboid, that's the exact inverse of the truth. As long ago as 1979 Ian Birchall (ironically) felt the need to write his 'Premature Burial' piece to defend the is/swp against Martin Shaw's claims (echoed by most of the far left) that Cliffites were workerist, anti-woman and lacking in internal democracy (a polite way of saying brain dead). This crap ain't new, please stop pretending it is.

that isnt a polite way of saying 'brain dead' at all, utter drivel. Black is white to you. Martin Smith isnt a rapist. The SWP is alive and well.

 

[belboid]

Actually it does, because that is what it is. Also, it was certainly read that way by the non-members I sell SW to at work.

oh well, thats convincing. It is because you say it is!

Nope. There was a ton of shit flying around before he left, but he didn't leave until a decision was made to proceed with the case. It was the prospect of that hearing that forced him to leave. It wasn't an accident or a random event it was the decision of the Central Committee to proceed after the Disputes Committee had been deadlocked.

and you were so grateful he just walked, arent you? All that shit and half the DC still supported him. What complete and utter scum those people are. And they're nearly all still on the DC. So the party has clearly learnt nothing. In fact they're not just in the party, they're leading it now! And asking people to contribute to Smith's Phd, their old mate.

What precisely do you think the SWP has learnt? Cos from here it looks like absolutely nothing.

 

[belboid]

That SWP 'apology'

We are sorry for the suffering caused to them by the structural flaws in our disputes procedures, the way in which the two cases became a subject of political conflict within the party and slurs on the internet.


Nothing about the lies, nothing about the slurs made out by the Party, just a vague 'we could have done it better.' Utterly worthless.

 

[DotCommunist]

'the structural flaws in our disputes procedures'

is not an apology, its a politicians apology.

loyalists allowed on the internet now are they?

 

[Trappist]

All that shit and half the DC still supported him.

Not a case of supporting anybody - there was a short period of disagreement as to whether the DC as it then existed could hear the case as the second complainant had forcefully said she did not trust them. The logjam was broken by the CC arranging an ad hoc panel of members acceptable to her and her supporters.

And they're nearly all still on the DC... ...In fact they're not just in the party, they're leading it now!

No, they all stood down at last year's conference and a completely different DC was elected. Nor was anyone from the original DC elected to the CC.

So the party has clearly learnt nothing.

Oh I think we've learnt a lot. If we hadn't we wouldn't have held a review and developed (and published) a new Disputes Procedure to take on board many of the criticisms levelled at us.

Clearly, some people would only be satisfied if we just fucked off and died. In my experience, the rest are willing to look at the facts and reach their own conclusions.

 

[belboid]

Not a case of supporting anybody - there was a short period of disagreement as to whether the DC as it then existed could hear the case as the second complainant had forcefully said she did not trust them. The logjam was broken by the CC arranging an ad hoc panel of members acceptable to her and her supporters.

of course the DC supported him ,thats why the second case was initially not heard, why do you think the complainant said she didnt trust them?!

No, they all stood down at last year's conference and a completely different DC was elected. Nor was anyone from the original DC elected to the CC.

fair enough

Oh I think we've learnt a lot. If we hadn't we wouldn't have held a review and developed (and published) a new Disputes Procedure to take on board many of the criticisms levelled at us.

Clearly, some people would only be satisfied if we just fucked off and died. In my experience, the rest are willing to look at the facts and reach their own conclusions.

So the only thing to go wrong was a bit of the procedure? Really? You honestly believe that?

Best of luck re-arranging your deckchairs.