SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Limerick Red]

Didnt Rachel Reeves just say Labour would be tougher than the Tories in regards to welfare and benefits?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

So you are claiming the benefit system was no different under Labour and the Tories ?

You are not living in the real world.

No, actually read before you continue making an arse of yourself. I'm saying Labour brought in things like ESA and floated the idea of sanctions. The tory party carried them on and Labour will not rescind a single one of them, except the bedroom tax (maybe) because it's such a disastrous and costly policy that costs more money than it saves anyway.

 

[Limerick Red]

P.F fuckin I's

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Im trying to bring you guys into it, out of your political wank fantasies

By telling us we're all smug know it alls who should vote for more of the same under a different coloured banner? What a sterling job you're doing!

 

[comrade spurski]

Im trying to bring you guys into it, out of your political wank fantasies

you should be in the swp with that level of arrogance

 

[october_lost]

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Half a loaf is better then none, half a loaf sustains for the future, none leaves you with nothing.

Half a loaf would indeed be both nutritious and impressive.

In the real world, what proportion of the Labour Party would you say you had already won over to pro-working class politics?

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Half a loaf would indeed be both nutritious and impressive.

In the real world, what proportion of the Labour Party would you say you had already won over to pro-working class politics?

One eighth of Paul Flynn's beard.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

One eighth of Paul Flynn's beard.

Well now, that's unfair.

Kalfindin has clearly put a lot of time and energy into this initiative. I'd like to know more about what progress has been made so far, in the real world.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

You are making judgements on other peoples internet priorities?
FFS you really like making an arse of yourself dont you?
You had a fucking meltdown on this site cos a member of your family was involved with the bnp yet you dont get why other people might be fucked off/ upset/ worried etc. about be connected via facebook to people who defend the terrible treatment of the women involved in the delta case?
Seriously...stop posting if all you are going to do is be a prick

If you're gonna be such an arse as to tell people where they may and may not post then at least use a less idiotic argument to make your case spurski. Being worried about having FB friends who are IDOOMers is not equivalent to having FB friends/relatives who are nazis you plonker. Amazed anyone could suggest it was. It's fairly unlikely that any of these trots whining about their degrees of separation from fellow trots they've disowned are going to have IDOOMers knocking on their door to tell them their kids are half breed Irish scum, which is what happens when you get into a row with nazi relatives on fb. Wee bit of perspective please, what sort of far left self important bubble do these people live in, they're chucking their toys out the pram about being vaguely associated with lefties with whom, compared to 99% of the population, they agree about 99% of the major issues of the day, it's not very edifying.

 

[SpineyNorman]

You are coming from more of a "string 'em up" / "proletarian justice" angle on this one?

proletarian standpoint lol

The SWP is a total irrelevance, I cant think of one think its achieved in its whole existence. What a waste of time. They are useful idiots.

I'm no fan of the SWP but that's bullshit.

You are half quoting what I said. The SWP stops young idealistic people engaging in real politics, ie joining their local labour branch and becoming politicians and reclaiming it. Its a distraction that works against the interests of the only serious political route working class people have in Britain.

The labour left must be rebuilt by working class people re-joining labour, you tell me another route ?

Real politics ? That which affects the lives of real people in local communities. Not activism built on marches for abstract causes that change nothing

Ah I see. You're a fucking idiot - sorry about that I didn't realise.

No, actually read before you continue making an arse of yourself. I'm saying Labour brought in things like ESA and floated the idea of sanctions. The tory party carried them on and Labour will not rescind a single one of them, except the bedroom tax (maybe) because it's such a disastrous and costly policy that costs more money than it saves anyway.

and the tories would eventually have to get rid of it in the extremely unlikely event of them getting another term cos it's a fucking disaster and isn't popular with anyone - only reason they haven't is they'd lose face and they know labour will do it for them post-2015

If you're gonna be such an arse as to tell people where they may and may not post then at least use a less idiotic argument to make your case spurski. Being worried about having FB friends who are IDOOMers is not equivalent to having FB friends/relatives who are nazis you plonker. Amazed anyone could suggest it was. It's fairly unlikely that any of these trots whining about their degrees of separation from fellow trots they've disowned are going to have IDOOMers knocking on their door to tell them their kids are half breed Irish scum, which is what happens when you get into a row with nazi relatives on fb. Wee bit of perspective please, what sort of far left self important bubble do these people live in, they're chucking their toys out the pram about being vaguely associated with lefties with whom, compared to 99% of the population, they agree about 99% of the major issues of the day, it's not very edifying.

This is getting painful now, please stop.

I've worked out how to use the multiquote function

 

[comrade spurski]

If you're gonna be such an arse as to tell people where they may and may not post then at least use a less idiotic argument to make your case spurski. Being worried about having FB friends who are IDOOMers is not equivalent to having FB friends/relatives who are nazis you plonker. Amazed anyone could suggest it was. It's fairly unlikely that any of these trots whining about their degrees of separation from fellow trots they've disowned are going to have IDOOMers knocking on their door to tell them their kids are half breed Irish scum, which is what happens when you get into a row with nazi relatives on fb. Wee bit of perspective please, what sort of far left self important bubble do these people live in, they're chucking their toys out the pram about being vaguely associated with lefties with whom, compared to 99% of the population, they agree about 99% of the major issues of the day, it's not very edifying.

idoomers...fuck right off...their problem is that they believe these people are rape apologists...remember when you discribed it as "bad sex" you arrogant jumped up fuck wit??????
... perspective ... you have no fucking idea what it means you fucking idiot...
edifying...you choose to lecture about things not being edifying after describing a woman's allegation of rape as bad sex...serious, fuck off

 

[comrade spurski]

If you're gonna be such an arse as to tell people where they may and may not post then at least use a less idiotic argument to make your case spurski. Being worried about having FB friends who are IDOOMers is not equivalent to having FB friends/relatives who are nazis you plonker. Amazed anyone could suggest it was. It's fairly unlikely that any of these trots whining about their degrees of separation from fellow trots they've disowned are going to have IDOOMers knocking on their door to tell them their kids are half breed Irish scum, which is what happens when you get into a row with nazi relatives on fb. Wee bit of perspective please, what sort of far left self important bubble do these people live in, they're chucking their toys out the pram about being vaguely associated with lefties with whom, compared to 99% of the population, they agree about 99% of the major issues of the day, it's not very edifying.

i didn't tell people where they could and could not post...learn to read instead of twisting things to fit your sad arsed stalinist politics you arrogant prick

 

[BK Double Stack]

Imagine my excitement when I saw the amount of activity on this thread today...and my disappointment when I saw its content. Worse than the rap interlude we had a while back.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I'm no fan of the SWP but that's bullshit.

What have the SWP achieved then?

 

[laptop]

That's odd.

I was going to link to yesterday's Guardian Diary item about the trouble the Social Workers are having getting venues for Marksism.

I remembered this fragment:

The saboteurs, mainly students, call themselves SWP Off Campus and have adopted the hashtag #creepingfeminism.

#creepingfeminism shows up in a search of the Guardian website, but links to today's Diary, not yesterday's, which appears to have vanished entirely. Obviously for an entirely unconnected reason. But remind me to get it out of the recycling!

 

[Nigel Irritable]

What have the SWP achieved then?

They stopped a bus route through the suburb where I grew up from being abolished.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

From Socialist Worker's special Class War tribute issue, I presume: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...s-reason-to-save-the-polar-bears-9597931.html

 

[treelover]

I live in the real world of poor pensioners , unemployed people with no money etc, not your world.

You don't know anything about him, stop making assumptions.

 

[chilango]

From Socialist Worker's special Class War tribute issue, I presume: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/m...s-reason-to-save-the-polar-bears-9597931.html

Fucking idiots.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

They stopped a bus route through the suburb where I grew up from being abolished.

I meant in the UK. The Irish left is or was always a bit better imo

 

[treelover]

The article appears all the more shocking given the fact that the Socialist Workers Party’s own national secretary, Charlie Kimber, is himself reported to be an Old Etonian.

oh dear, having said that, its just the sort of article you used to see in class war and was lapped up by some.

 

[chilango]

oh dear, having said that, its just the sort of article you used to see in class war and was lapped up by some.

Nah. Class War would swear more and hopefully be funny.

 

[treelover]

It is despicable, of course. But considering the torrent of filth poured by the Tory press on their favourite bogeymen every day, it is dreadfully understandable. Not excusable, but certainly understandable.
By the way, how is it that one privileged schoolboy's death gets a whole story devoted to it, but one has to turn to the alternative media to discover how many people have been killed by this government's so-called "welfare" policies? They would perhaps better be named "illfare". That is a new word, to go with "wealthfare", i.e. the practice of making handouts to the already well-off. The rich get wealthfare, the poor get illfare.
All deaths are tragedies. Avoidable deaths are worse than tragedies. So why are so many being ignored while this one is highlighted?

Interesting post in the comments.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

The comment is spot on. This daft article is nothing compared to the SWPs real crimes.

 

[Horas]

btw was comrade delta ever charged by the police with anything?
remember the maoist 'cult' that apparently kept 'slaves' on invisible chains? were they ever charged with anything?
if they haven't been charged, and there are no charges, then i don't see why this is such an issue tbh.
i think many left the swp in mass after this not because of this particular case, but of the attitude of the leadership. i don't think the swp are 'rape apologists', and they have suffered enough over this, methinks. who the hell are we to set ourselves up as judge, jury, and executioner?

 

[Horas]

then again, they are swappies, fuck'em!

 

[JHE]

btw was comrade delta ever charged by the police with anything?
remember the maoist 'cult' that apparently kept 'slaves' on invisible chains? were they ever charged with anything?
if they haven't been charged, and there are no charges, then i don't see why this is such an issue tbh.
i think many left the swp in mass after this not because of this particular case, but of the attitude of the leadership. i don't think the swp are 'rape apologists', and they have suffered enough over this, methinks. who the hell are we to set ourselves up as judge, jury, and executioner?

Some interesting comments, but surely fair-minded people, who don't go along with the hyperbolic bollocks of calling the Social Workers "rape apologists" or claims that women students are made unsafe by the presence of the sect on campuses, should be able to recognise that the Social Worker bosses handled the whole thing appalling badly, that Martin Smith was guilty at the very least of exploiting his status within the sect to take advantage sexually of naive young women members and that for a long time his chums at the top of the sect were devoted to protecting him despite his predatory behaviour.

It is fair to ask whether the young women went to the police and if not why not. Personally I think the police are at the moment the only body capable of properly investigating allegations of the sort made and a Trot sect is plainly incapable. Nevertheless, if they did not go, there are at least two explanations other than that their allegations were false. Some people, rightly or wrongly, say the police and the judicial system still treat rape victims very badly and the among would-be revolutionaries there is an allergy (which may be mistaken, but sincere) to using 'the state', in this case, plod, the CPS and the courts.

 

[Horas]

Some interesting comments, but surely fair-minded people, who don't go along with the hyperbolic bollocks of calling the Social Workers "rape apologists" or claims that women students are made unsafe by the presence of the sect on campuses, should be able to recognise that the Social Worker bosses handled the whole thing appalling badly, that Martin Smith was guilty at the very least of exploiting his status within the sect to take advantage sexually of naive young women members and that for a long time his chums at the top of the sect were devoted to protecting him despite his predatory behaviour.

It is fair to ask whether the young women went to the police and if not why not. Personally I think the police are at the moment the only body capable of properly investigating allegations of the sort made and a Trot sect is plainly incapable. Nevertheless, if they did not go, there at least two explanations other than that their allegations were false. Some people, rightly or wrongly, say the police and the judicial system still treat rape victims very badly and the among would-be revolutionaries there is an allergy (which may be mistaken, but sincere) to using 'the state', in this case, plod, the CPS and the courts.

i agree that 'Social Worker bosses handled the whole thing appalling badly, that Martin Smith was guilty at the very least of exploiting his status within the sect to take advantage sexually of naive young women members'. most of the swp i know, and have disagreed with on a comradely basis over many political issues for years, are certainly not rape apologists. i think the leadership, Alex callinicos, handled the situation very badly. the way this case was handled tells me something about their leadership.

regarding the police, and the judicial system, there is of course, on the far left, a reluctance to go to the cops. however, there is not a 'peoples court' in existence, and in the real situation of our time, there is no other course. i know many anarchists in particular hate the cops, with good reason, however, if say, there is a racist attack on an asian family in the neighbourhood, should the family not report the crime to the police? of course they should, because there is no other real choice. the police may well be racist, but what other option is there?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

idoomers...fuck right off...their problem is that they believe these people are rape apologists...remember when you discribed it as "bad sex" you arrogant jumped up fuck wit??????
... perspective ... you have no fucking idea what it means you fucking idiot...
edifying...you choose to lecture about things not being edifying after describing a woman's allegation of rape as bad sex...serious, fuck off

Roar said the lion. On a brighter note least you didn't defend the idea that having swpers on your FB wall is on a par with nazis.

Let's be clear here this little flurry of excitement was about whether folk should have FB friends who are also friends with the main culprits. So people like Holborrow were getting deleted by the furious ones. Fair enough, if they find PH that annoying then by all means block him. But the moral outrage at finding one is still his friend on FB is just childish. In the real world I'd quite happily stand with any of them or PH or 99% of the folk on here on any numbers of pickets or demos and not jump out of my skin at finding myself next to them, so finding them next to me on FB seems even less startling. A minority of them might feel the need to scream rape apologist at swpers before, during or after everyone links arms against the police or the nazis or whoever but I respectfully suggest that five years from now anyone who is still doing that will just be seen as a little odd, if only because that tone of moral outrage doesn't match what most people who work with swpers know about them. They may get up people's noses but any honest appraisal doesn't include the phrase rape apologist or misogynist or any of the other nonsense being thrown at people whose actual track records over decades suggests the opposite.