SWP expulsions and squabbles

[J Ed]

Marxism 2014 is near:

I saw a paper sale today on my way to work, haven't seen one of those for a while - last ditch attempt to get a few more attendees?

 

[Kalfindin]

There's been some discussion of the latest SWP rows and expulsions over on the Callinicos / Penny thread, but, it tended to get buried under mountains of hate directed at the "left" commentariat. So here's a thread to discuss expulsions and squabbles in one of Britain's main left wing groups.

The Weekly Worker (as always, caution advised) has an account of four people getting the boot in the run up to SWP conference. There's an amusingly Kafkaesque edge to it too. They were expelled for factionalism, seemingly as a result of facebook messages. But this happened during the "pre-conference period", where for a few months a year, SWP members are supposed by allowed to form factions. The problem is though that to gain factional rights, you need 30 signatories... but to gather those 30 signatories you have to engage in what the Central Committee considers "factionalism". Which is an expellable offence.

So two of the people who wrote critical articles in the pre-conference bulletins and a couple of others were unceremoniously ejected.

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/943/swp-expelled-before-conference-begins

The SWP is a total irrelevance, I cant think of one think its achieved in its whole existence. What a waste of time. They are useful idiots.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The SWP is a total irrelevance, I cant think of one think its achieved in its whole existence. What a waste of time. They are useful idiots.

Which is why you are wasting your own time posting on a thread about the SWP.

 

[Kalfindin]

Which is why you are wasting your own time posting on a thread about the SWP.

Because they work against the interests of the working class, they stop young people and radically minded people from engaging in real politics, where they could influence.

All these irrelevant groups are a safety valve where the security services can monitor and contain.

There is only one available route, that's for working class people to reclaim labour. The SWP et al poison people away from that reality.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Because they work against the interests of the working class, they stop young people and radically minded people from engaging in real politics.

That's an argument that they are in fact relevant. It's also a crazy argument.

What "real politics" are you talking about precisely?

 

[Kalfindin]

That's an argument that they are in fact relevant. It's also a crazy argument.

What "real politics" are you talking about precisely?

Working class people reclaiming labour is a crazy argument ? You tell me the alternative ?Its real politics, community politics, taking back our local labour party branches, reclaiming the only party relevant to the working class.

Its reality not political hobbyism.

You name me one thing the SWP has achieved in its whole existence ? Name me one thing those thousands of marches have achieved ?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Working class people reclaiming labour is a crazy argument ? You tell me the alternative ?Its real politics, community politics, taking back our local labour party branches, reclaiming the only party relevant to the working class.

Its reality not political hobbyism.

You name me one thing the SWP has achieved in its whole existence ?

The argument that the SWP has any significant effect on stopping "young people and radically minded people" from doing anything is a crazy argument.

I wasn't responding to your argument about "reclaiming" Labour because you hadn't made it yet. But now that you have, yes, that is a completely fucking crazy argument too.

The Labour left is almost extinct, reduced to a bewildered and atomised rump. If anything it's less relevant than the fucking SWP, and that is no small claim.

 

[Kalfindin]

The argument that the SWP has any significant effect on stopping "young people and radically minded people" from doing anything is a crazy argument.

I wasn't responding to your argument about "reclaiming" Labour because you hadn't made it yet. But now that you have, yes, that is a completely fucking crazy argument too.

The Labour left is almost extinct, reduced to a bewildered and atomised rump. If anything it's less relevant than the fucking SWP, and that is no small claim.

You are half quoting what I said. The SWP stops young idealistic people engaging in real politics, ie joining their local labour branch and becoming politicians and reclaiming it. Its a distraction that works against the interests of the only serious political route working class people have in Britain.

The labour left must be rebuilt by working class people re-joining labour, you tell me another route ?

Real politics ? That which affects the lives of real people in local communities. Not activism built on marches for abstract causes that change nothing

 

[butchersapron]

Odd turn.

 

[Limerick Red]

Working class people reclaiming labour is a crazy argument ? You tell me the alternative ?Its real politics, community politics, taking back our local labour party branches, reclaiming the only party relevant to the working class.

Its reality not political hobbyism.

You name me one thing the SWP has achieved in its whole existence ?

Can you tell us how the Labour party intend to be relevant to the working class? which of their planned cuts are the ones that will benefit the working class?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You are half quoting what I said. The SWP stops young idealistic people engaging in real politics, ie joining their local labour branch and becoming politicians and reclaiming it. Its a distraction that works against the interests of the only serious political route working class people have in Britain.

The labour left must be rebuilt by working class people re-joining labour, you tell me another route ?

Not that many young people are joining the SWP these days and few of those who do would have any interest in joining Labour anyway.

All of the stuff you are coming out with about the Labour left is what the Catholics would call a Profession of Faith, not an argument based on any kind of strategic reasoning. The Labour Party is not in the process of being reclaimed, instead any such possibility has been closed down. The Labour left has approximately the organised strength of one of the runts of the Trot sect litter. And "radical young people" are about the least likely demographic imaginable to join it in numbers.

 

[Kalfindin]

Can you tell us how the Labour party intend to be relevant to the working class? which of their planned cuts are the ones that will benefit the working class?

Because working class people are no longer represented in labour, it does not have pro working class policies. The only way this can change is if working class people re-join it, bitching about it achieves nothing, infact it helps the enemies of the working class.

 

[J Ed]

Because working class people are no longer represented in labour, it does not have pro working class policies. The only way this can change is if working class people re-join it, bitching about it achieves nothing, infact it helps the enemies of the working class.

Why not join UKIP instead?

 

[Limerick Red]

Because working class people are no longer represented in labour, it does not have pro working class policies. The only way this can change is if working class people re-join it, bitching about it achieves nothing, infact it helps the enemies of the working class.

This is the problem with the New Labour rebranding, it fools people into thinking there was an old labour. Labour have failed the class at every opportunity.

 

[Kalfindin]

Not that many young people are joining the SWP these days and few of those who do would have any interest in joining Labour anyway.

All

Not that many young people are joining the SWP these days and few of those who do would have any interest in joining Labour anyway.

All of the stuff you are coming out with about the Labour left is what the Catholics would call a Profession of Faith, not an argument based on any kind of strategic reasoning. The Labour Party is not in the process of being reclaimed, instead any such possibility has been closed down. The Labour left has approximately the organised strength of one of the runts of the Trot sect litter. And "radical young people" are about the least likely demographic imaginable to join it in numbers.

The most logical route for working class people is to re-join labour and rebuild it in their image. That's not an argument of faith, its an argument of logic.

Once again, whats your alternative ?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Because working class people are no longer represented in labour, it does not have pro working class policies. The only way this can change is if working class people re-join it, bitching about it achieves nothing, infact it helps the enemies of the working class.

Working class people aren't represented in the Tories and they don't have pro working class policies. The only way this can change is if working class people join them.

Working class people aren't represented in the Liberal Democrats and they don't have pro working class policies. The only way this can change is if working class people join them.

 

[J Ed]

The most logical route for working class people is to re-join labour and rebuild it in their image. That's not an argument of faith, its an argument of logic.

The most logical route for working class people is to join UKIP and rebuild it in their image. That's not an argment of faith, it's an argment of logic.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The most logical route for working class people is to re-join labour and rebuild it in their image. That's not an argument of faith, its an argument of logic.

Once again, whats your alternative ?

What is logical about joining a party that doesn't represent you or your class in the forlorn hope that one day it might, even though there is zero indication that such a change is even conceivably on the agenda?

 

[Kalfindin]

This is the problem with the New Labour rebranding, it fools people into thinking there was an old labour. Labour have failed the class at every opportunity.

Maybe you need to read some social history, who do you think brought in everything from the NHS to the welfare state ? Political utopians like yourself are as big an enemy to the working class as Tories.

 

[quiquaquo]

This is the problem with the New Labour rebranding, it fools people into thinking there was an old labour. Labour have failed the class at every opportunity.

That's certainly true but the same is true of the SWP. Not in any way fault of the SWP membership but of their corrupt, bourgeois leadership. If Callinicos had any decency/self awareness he would do the decent thing.

 

[J Ed]

At least UKIP don't have responsibility for the killing of countless millions of foreigners in neoliberal wars from WW1, to the Malaya emergency, Serbia and Iraq to name just a handful of examples...

 

[J Ed]

Maybe you need to read some social history, who do you think brought in everything from the NHS to the welfare state ? Political utopians like yourself are as big an enemy to the working class as Tories.

Do you agree with social democratic reforms being built on the back of the oppressed working-class in other countries then? Cos that was Atlee and Bevin's game.

 

[Kalfindin]

What is logical about joining a party that doesn't represent you or your class in the forlorn hope that one day it might, even though there is zero indication that such a change is even conceivably on the agenda?

You are not a rational person are you Nigel ? If people re-join labour instead of stupid irrelevant political parties and reclaim their local branches, engage in community politics, they start to rebuild it as a party of working class. Maybe its a bit strategic for you.

 

[J Ed]

Ok, I think this is a wind up now.

 

[Kalfindin]

Do you agree with social democratic reforms being built on the back of the oppressed working-class in other countries then? Cos that was Atlee and Bevin's game.

At least UKIP don't have responsibility for the killing of countless millions of foreigners in neoliberal wars from WW1, to the Malaya emergency, Serbia and Iraq to name just a handful of examples...

This is typical crazy logic, X did z, therefore x can never be used as a strategic vehicle.Even though in reality its only the name that's potentially the link to the past.

 

[Kalfindin]

Ok, I think this is a wind up now.

I live in the real world of poor pensioners , unemployed people with no money etc, not your world.

 

[J Ed]

This is typical crazy logic, X did z, therefore x can never be used as a strategic vehicle.Even though in reality its only the name that's potentially the link to the past.

You literally just argued that the working-class should re-join Labour because of social democratic reforms in 1945. You are not for real.

 

[Kalfindin]

You literally just argued that the working-class should re-join Labour because of social democratic reforms in 1945. You are not for real.

Its the only realistic vehicle for working class people to gain power. That's the bottom line.

 

[Kalfindin]

The most logical route for working class people is to join UKIP and rebuild it in their image. That's not an argment of faith, it's an argment of logic.

No that's being pedantic, UKIP are a far right party. Labour the only party that has represented the working class in any significant way.

 

[Kalfindin]

Still waiting for you guys alternative ?