SWP expulsions and squabbles

[butchersapron]

Is whether they describe themselves as "avengers" or not (probably not) really the crucial issue here? They are self described autonomists and that's surely the relevant point, if we are assessing them rather than avps (presumably we can all agree to take a dim view of him regardless?)

This seems to me to be the point within twittersectionalism where certain subsets of anarchoid and certain subsets of liberal feminist start to overlap.

They're not even self described as 'autonomists' for fucks sake.

A totally made up quote is here being defended because you/belboid don't like the people.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

They're not even self described as 'autonomists' for fucks sake.

A totally made up quote is here being defended because you/belboid don't like the people.

Wait does their website not call themselves "autonomist anarchists" whatever that amalgam may be. As for not liking them, all I know about them is this silliness.

 

[butchersapron]

Wait does their website not call themselves "autonomist anarchists" whatever that amalgam may be. As for not liking them, all I know about them is this silliness.

No it doesn't.

 

[belboid]

No it doesn't.

yes it does.

'Autonomous anarchist group currently active in Merseyside.' - top right of the page

 

[butchersapron]

Wait does their website not call themselves "autonomist anarchists" whatever that amalgam may be. As for not liking them, all I know about them is this silliness.

And they sound like twats so you'll allow made up stuff to go by - or are not least even check it's true. And when you check, get it wrong.

 

[belboid]

And they sound like twats so you'll allow made up stuff to go by - or are not least even check it's true. And when you check, get it wrong.

oh the irony

 

[butchersapron]

yes it does.

'Autonomous anarchist group currently active in Merseyside.' - top right of the page

autonomist anarchists.
Autonomous anarchist

 

[butchersapron]

oh the irony

Let it fucking flow.

 

[belboid]

time to give the shovel to someone else butch

 

[butchersapron]

time to give the shovel to someone else butch

Why, you've defended someone making up a quote then mistook one word for another (they do sound very similar though - politically not so, as you'd know if you were paying attention for the last 15 years). You're out twice. I'm on a hat-trick.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

And they sound like twats so you'll allow made up stuff to go by - or are not least even check it's true. And when you check, get it wrong.

I took belboid at his word which seemed reasonable enough, and which still seems so, unless you are really arguing that their use of autonomous is just a bizarre and unlikely way of saying independent? Or are you saying that they are referencing some separate theoretical tradition of the "autonomous" which doesn't stem from autonomist.

All squabbling aside, I'm increasingly unsure what distinction you are drawing and would welcome an explanation.

 

[butchersapron]

I took belboid at his word which seemed reasonable enough, and which still seems so, unless you are really arguing that their use of autonomous is just a bizarre and unlikely way of saying independent?

It's a standard use of independent - it's got nothing to do with autonomist. And even if it were, making quotes up is not good or helpful. There is no defence - esp not on the basis of i don't like them. Be serious.

 

[belboid]

It's a standard use of independent - it's got nothing to do with autonomist. And even if it were, making quotes up is not good or helpful. There is no defence - esp not on the basis of i don't like them. Be serious.

its a meaningless use of independent. Independent from what? The state? Other anarchist groups? That's obvious from the fact that they dont call themselves Liverpool Afed, or whatever. At the very least it seems to be implying a link to autonomism.

 

[butchersapron]

its a meaningless use of independent. Independent from what? The state? Other anarchist groups? That's obvious from the fact that they dont call themselves Liverpool Afed, or whatever. At the very least it seems to be implying a link to autonomism.

Yeah, the state, labour party, UAF and HnH. Simple. Autonomous. Not autonomist.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It's a standard use of independent - it's got nothing to do with autonomist. And even if it were, making quotes up is not good or helpful. There is no defence - esp not on the basis of i don't like them. Be serious.

There is zero chance in my view that their use of "autonomous" is just an odd way of saying independent and is not meant to reference autonomism. And if you take a step back for a moment, I doubt you will really disagree.

As for defending the avps misquote, I haven't done that and am unlikely to do so on the basis that I don't like these scouse sillies, because I'm pretty sure I like him less.

In my experience, the only people who are almost as prone to misusing the term autonomist as SWPish trots are some of the more pretentious anarchoids. I'm a little surprised they haven't declared themselves comunisateurs while they are at it.

 

[belboid]

Yeah, the state, labour party, UAF and HnH. Simple. Autonomous. Not autonomist.

anarchists need to point out they are independent of the Labour Party? What?

 

[butchersapron]

There is zero chance in my view that their use of "autonomous" is just an odd way of saying independent and is not meant to reference autonomism. And if you take a step back for a moment, I doubt you will really disagree.

As for defending the avps misquote, I haven't done that and am unlikely to do so on the basis that I don't like these scouse sillies, because I'm pretty sure I like him less.

See above. Autonomous is always used in this way in these groups. It never ever means autonomist. Seeing as no such thing exists.

 

[butchersapron]

anarchists need to point out they are independent of the Labour Party? What?

They certainly can point that out, yes.

 

[belboid]

They certainly can point that out, yes.

of course they can, but why would they need to?

 

[butchersapron]

anarchists need to point out they are independent of the Labour Party? What?

So let me get this right - they don't think they're automomists, but they really are and when they specifically chose not to to say autonomists but autonomous on their banner they were wrong. So to call them autonomists is the correct. Trot brain in full effect.

 

[butchersapron]

of course they can, but why would they need to?

They can do it whether they need to or not.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You see to be implying that because "no such thing exists", sillies wouldn't lay claim to it. This greatly overestimates the rationality and self awareness of sillies.

 

[butchersapron]

Seriously, ten years of the SWP bombing away at autonomism/autonmists and you two think it just means autonomous? Like alsatian autonomists or something?

 

[butchersapron]

You see to be implying that because "no such thing exists", sillies wouldn't lay claim to it. This greatly overestimates the rationality and self awareness of sillies.

I'm not. I'm saying that's why they did it. Because they're young kids who haven't thought things through and so relying on buzzwords.

 

[butchersapron]

You see to be implying that because "no such thing exists", sillies wouldn't lay claim to it. This greatly overestimates the rationality and self awareness of sillies.

Oh hang on you meant autonomist rather than hanging on the end of belboid's last. It not existing is a pretty good reason for people not laying claim to it and for assuming that they haven't - or not using it at all. Another existing use of the term they actually in real reality used - i.e independent of the NUS, labour party etc - is a good reason for assuming that this is the use intended.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

So why would they use "autonomous", with its obvious allusion, rather than the clear, unencumbered and much more commonly used "independent" if they weren't deliberately making a connection?

"It doesn't exist" is a reason for people versed in it not to claim it. It's not a reason that applies to sillies. Have you ever been on revleft? The world is full of fantasists playing dress up in other people's political clothes, and there is zero reason to suppose that autonomism is immune from the same fancy dress appropriation as situationism, Hoxhaism, Bordigism, black nationalism, councilism etc

 

[treelover]

RE, table overturning, I well recall Richard Caborn, son of a communist and previous New Labour minister violently throwing over a table and items(and scuffling) belonging to the SP who had 'gatecrashed' an event at 'Wortley Hall in Yorkshire. This occurred when he still just was an M.P.

 

[butchersapron]

So why would they use "autonomous", with its obvious allusion, rather than the clear, unencumbered and much more commonly used "independent" if they weren't deliberately making a connection?

"It doesn't exist" is a reason for people versed in it not to claim it. It's not a reason that applies to sillies. Have you ever been on revleft? The world is full of fantasists playing dress up in other people's political clothes, and there is zero reason to suppose that autonomism is immune from the same fancy dress appropriation

Because it has a 100+year meaning of radical. Simple.

No i don't go on your kiddy boards.

If they wanted to say autonomist why didn't they say autonomist? They really really really meant autonomist but just couldn't spell it?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Let me suggest that if you'd ever encountered the fancy dress versions of every current, garbled and spewed up on revleft, you would be much less dismissive of the idea that silly people would try on clothes you don't think are appropriate.

As for why "autonomous", I'd suggest that it's because they want to amalgamate autonomist and anarchist and "autonomous" is a more natural sounding prefix.

I'd also suggest that you are perhaps getting so combative about this utter triviality (does a group of anarchoid sillies intend to claim some influence from autonomism or not, a question that is entirely unrelated to that of whether they actually have any association) because you are quixotically defending the honour of a current that has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

 

[butchersapron]

Let me suggest that if you'd ever encountered the fancy dress versions of every current, garbled and spewed up on revleft, you would be much less dismissive of the idea that silly people would try on clothes you don't think are appropriate.

As for why "autonomous", I'd suggest that it's because they want to amalgamate autonomist and anarchist and "autonomous" is a more natural sounding prefix.

I'd also suggest that you are perhaps getting so combative about this utter triviality (does a group of anarchoid sillies intend to claim some influence from autonomism or not, a question that is entirely unrelated to that of whether they actually have any association) because you are quixotically defending the honour of a current that has no relevance to the discussion at hand.

Don't waste your time on kiddy sites nigel.

No, in the context here in this county autonomous means autonomous - it's not a misspellen autonomist (and that your time on the kiddy sites hasn't armed you to the difference is your main failing here). It literally means outside of the NUS and the SWP etc. You're the only one looking to amalgamate autonomist and anarchist here.

I'd suggest that your combative defence of lies and inventions stems from you being show not to know a damn thing about a part of the left that you, as a trainspotter, should be on top of.