SWP expulsions and squabbles

[chilango]

Anyhow. Regardless. I was just saying to someone, in the space of a generation or two the Left in the UK has gone from the SWP claiming 10,000 members with the Millies not far behind, rumps of the IMG and WRP still numbering in the hundreds, other misc Trot splinters regularly getting into 3 figure memberships, plus the Tankies adding another couple of thousand, alongside organised LP entryists and 3 national @ orgs to what?

to this?

 

[articul8]

It just isn't your party http://www.leftfutures.org/2013/11/...-to-pretend-its-not-just-progress-youth-wing/

Sheffield Labour Students is supposed to be the 'radical' wing of the Labour student movement and if that's the case then the future isn't very bright for the Labour Party tbh

Labour Students is a top-down run right wing lash up - NOLS has been like this even in the 70s and 80s.

 

[butchersapron]

That pisses in the same pot as you. Fuck off.

Btw, did anyone here keep a copy of the chapter of The Communist Technique by Bob Darke that i put online on the old CAC site?

 

[articul8]

I remember going to an RMT-organised conference in 2009 to discuss alternatives to Labour. A woman from the LRC got up to speak and said "Labour is my party. I can't leave it. But I absolutely understand why you want to build something new and I wish you the best of luck". Is this the standard response from LRC members?

Doesn't sound untypical. I think people would be very happy to be proved wrong and for a significant left alternative to be built to Labour's left. But since we don't see the conditions for it exist, we aren't ready to stop trying to influence the party which actually does have a significant w/c electoral base and links to the organised working class in the shape of the unions.

 

[Karmickameleon]

Probably. But the IST will never be the same as it was when Cliff and Harman were listened to with tremendous respect, thus giving the British SWP a disproportionate influence (and contrary to some people's view from the outside, all they ever had was influence, no policies were ever imposed upon us and I can remember Bambery and Stack being surprisingly sensitive to the whole issue of outside interference one time, when they wanted to encourage us to move from a monthly to a fortnightly paper). The British SWP standing will decline massively within the tendency and I expect that decline to continue over time as the consequences of this disaster work their way out. Having said that, if there are developments in terms of a re-composition of British opposition members in a new party that would pose an interesting question, internationally speaking.

I agree absolutely. I know rather less about the IST than the SWP, but it's clear the latter's influence will diminish significantly in the tendency because:
1) it has lost a largish chunk of its membership and will lose more
2) IST groups will have come to realise (if they weren't aware already) that the SWP membership figures are grossly inflated
3) many in the tendency will be sympathetic to the Opposition (I know this for a fact in one country)
4) Callinicos's reputation has been severely tarnished, having shown himself to be a coward, double-dealer and liar
What will be most interesting - as Oisin says - is how the IST groups relate to a future ISO grouping formed by those who have left.
BTW apologies if someone else has already made these points, but I haven't had time to catch up with all the recents posts.

 

[chilango]

That pisses in the same pot as you. Fuck off.

Btw, did anyone here keep a copy of the chapter of The Communist Technique by Bob Darke that i put online on the old CAC site?

I'll have a look. I loved that book.

 

[butchersapron]

Doesn't sound untypical. I think people would be very happy to be proved wrong and for a significant left alternative to be built to Labour's left. But since we don't see the conditions for it exist, we aren't ready to stop trying to influence the party which actually does have a significant w/c electoral base and links to the organised working class in the shape of the unions.

we aren't ready to stop trying to influence the party . real life lol

 

[butchersapron]

I'll have a look. I loved that book.

Cheers, none of the sites that archived the stuff we did seem to have that one. I have a hard copy so can do again but would prefer not to.

 

[chilango]

Cheers, none of the sites that archived the stuff we did seem to have that one. I have a hard copy so can do again but would prefer not to.

Had a quick look, can't seem to find it, but I'm sure I downloaded it at some point will look further. You have the whole book or just the excerpt that got turned into a pamphlet?

I used to have the whole thing somewhere. A great read.

 

[butchersapron]

Whole book. I think it was the pamphlet i put up. He was supposed to have gone far right at the end of his life. His daughter was well known to the voices we should listen to on the BTF thread.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Anyhow. Regardless. I was just saying to someone, in the space of a generation or two the Left in the UK has gone from the SWP claiming 10,000 members with the Millies not far behind, rumps of the IMG and WRP still numbering in the hundreds, other misc Trot splinters regularly getting into 3 figure memberships, plus the Tankies adding another couple of thousand, alongside organised LP entryists and 3 national @ orgs to what?

to this?

Actually our subs paying membership is a fair bit over 2000 (England and Wales). But you're right - the numbers of people involved in radical left groups are low. Part of this is likely to be the sheer number of left groups - many of them splits from the SWP. The three newest groups I can think of are Counterfire, ISN/RevSoc and Plan C (who may be just a website for all I know).

 

[chilango]

Whole book. I think it was the pamphlet i put up. He was supposed to have gone far right at the end of his life. His daughter was well known to the voices we should listen to on the BTF thread.

The text of "Poor Lenin" is still up at LibCom.

http://libcom.org/library/poor-lenin-bob-darke

I'm converting to mobi/epub as we speak if you want em.

 

[butchersapron]

The text of "Poor Lenin" is still up at LibCom.

http://libcom.org/library/poor-lenin-bob-darke

I'm converting to mobi/epub as we speak if you want em.

That's the one ta - couldn't remember the title the pamphlet used. No need on the mobi-epub front thanks.

 

[chilango]

Actually our subs paying membership is a fair bit over 2000 (England and Wales). But you're right - the numbers of people involved in radical left groups are low. Part of this is likely to be the sheer number of left groups - many of them splits from the SWP. The three newest groups I can think of are Counterfire, ISN/RevSoc and Plan C (who may be just a website for all I know).

Nah. There's fewer, far far fewer groups now.

Plan C have a few "groups" IRL afaik. I don't think they're a SWP split are they?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Whole book. I think it was the pamphlet i put up. He was supposed to have gone far right at the end of his life. His daughter was well known to the voices we should listen to on the BTF thread.

Darke was contributing to Hackney Action (a left wing community newspaper) in the early 1970s fwiw. When did he die?

 

[J Ed]

I just looked up Plan C, never heard of them before I do love that they have had an event called 'WTF is to be done?'

 

[belboid]

Plan C have a few "groups" IRL afaik. I don't think they're a SWP split are they?

couple in London, and in Leeds and Manchester.

 

[butchersapron]

Darke was contributing to Hackney Action (a left wing community newspaper) in the early 1970s fwiw. When did he die?

Really don't know mate. I need to check it out before i say anything further - i do know the claim was that he was anti-semitic though.

 

[frogwoman]

I hope not, because I really enjoyed his article about the CP.

 

[mk12]

The text of "Poor Lenin" is still up at LibCom.

http://libcom.org/library/poor-lenin-bob-darke

I'm converting to mobi/epub as we speak if you want em.

"'I saw your wife going into X's shop the other day, Bob. why?' 'To buy something probably.' 'This isn't a funny matter, Comrade Darke. Doesn't she know that man is a Tory? Why doesn't she shop at the Co-op?' 'She probably doesn't want to.' 'It's not a question of what she wants. She's your wife; get her to join the Co-op. We should build up Party strength in the Co-op guilds, you know that. Let's not see it happening again.' My self discipline was good. I accepted the whip. I told Ann. But I wouldn't like to repeat what she said. She didn't have my self-discipline..."

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Really don't know mate. I need to check it out before i say anything further - i do know the claim was that he was anti-semitic though.

No worries. I'd be interested in knowing more myself.

 

[chilango]

couple in London, and in Leeds and Manchester.

Thames Valley too.

 

[belboid]

Whole book. I think it was the pamphlet i put up. He was supposed to have gone far right at the end of his life. His daughter was well known to the voices we should listen to on the BTF thread.

did he actually write the book? Couple of things I've seen claim it (and his autobiography) were ghosted for him.

Interesting little bit about his daughter - http://stevesilver.org.uk/blog/the-firebombing-of-annas-house/

 

[belboid]

Thames Valley too.

I always count that as London

 

[chilango]

I always count that as London

I wish I could.

 

[butchersapron]

did he actually write the book? Couple of things I've seen claim it (and his autobiography) were ghosted for him.

Interesting little bit about his daughter - http://stevesilver.org.uk/blog/the-firebombing-of-annas-house/

Don't know. Not sure how we'd really find out either.

 

[belboid]

aye, bit too late now

 

[SpackleFrog]

Nah. There's fewer, far far fewer groups now.

Plan C have a few "groups" IRL afaik. I don't think they're a SWP split are they?

It depends what you mean - "active groups", no, but then at most Sheffield demonstrations we get the odd Newsline seller. Only became politically active during the Iraq war though, so perhaps I've not got a balanced perspective.

 

[chilango]

It depends what you mean - "active groups", no, but then at most Sheffield demonstrations we get the odd Newsline seller. Only became politically active during the Iraq war though, so perhaps I've not got a balanced perspective.

There's just far far fewer groups around.

I'm sure we could come up with a list of groups that have disappeared in the last 20 years versus groups that have formed in the last 20 years.

That'd be fun!

 

[frogwoman]

the trot-tree