SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
ska invita
back on the other side
i got sold one in the Half Moon last year - have to respect going around pubs table to table selling the paper
---
on another note...
are traditional hierarchical marxist organisations innately patriarchal/sexist?
i was thinking, supposedly a popular theory goes that patriarchal civilisation is a result of agriculture> leading to turf battles> leading to war over land> leading to bigger armies> resulting military hierarchy creating a dominant patriarchy (or thereabouts)
Bolshevik vanguardism was also built on a war footing, with armed struggle defining and influencing so many of its characteristics . Considering how much of an influence Bolshevik texts/history have over party leaderships such as that of the SWP, is feminism not in direct contradiction with this tradition?
I find it interesting that its a feminist issue which has been the bump in the road that they seemingly cant flatten
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
You should take it as a compliment.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
No. Or more precisely: 1) all organisations are "hierarchical", 2) no organisations or movements are cut off from society and thus completely without sexist, racist, etc residues, 3) organisations and movements of all kinds will vary drastically in how they cope with that fact, how they respond to those influences and how effectively they combat them. 4) although you wouldn't know it from the SWPs recent behaviour or the discourse that has sprung up around it, in general left organisations of all kinds tend to be markedly less sexist, racist or homophobic than the wider world in general. 5) within the very wide spectrum of left organisations on these questions, self-professedly "Leninist" ones can be found at all points.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I knew. When someone said an fairly prom wm
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I was a bit baffled by your post there, but presumably you mean as "only" a feminist issue? Because it certainly is a feminist issue.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
ska invita
back on the other side
yeah that was clumsy language and not what i meant of course, but i think the response by many men in the party is one
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Does this mean that U75 is now a completely SWP-free forum, with the exception of bolshiebhoy? Surely the must be someone else left?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
RMP3?
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
It's a bit like what Chris Morris said about Four Lions, there's a in-group dynamic at work there that you can find in a 5-a-side football time just as much as a jihadi terror cell. The group dynamics that lead to organisations and parties becoming like that aren't exclusive to the political left or even to Leninism, even if a particularly crude distillation of Leninism lends itself very well to such sect-like parties. I think the BNP post-2010 fits this bill just as much as the SWP.*
And it's not as if the SWP was a perfectly functional organisation in every other respect other than it's attitude to womens liberation and how to deal appropriately with complaints against senior members. The problems were broader than that, but because of the particularly horrific nature of what's gone on this area has taken the focus, but think about how they've acted in practically every situation over the last 5-10 years it's been disastrous in everything they do not just in fighting sexism.
It's intriguing to read Birchall or Renton (or Spurski's on here) resignation letters and see so much sincerity towards this organisation, that at one point clearly had something going for it, because I've only been aware of or marginally involved in left politics since about 2003/4, and for that entire period they've been nothing but awful and an obstacle in practically every interaction I've had in any given context.
*and the depressing fact that you can put the SWP (or any socialist) side by side with the BNP in terms of a discredited leadership clinging onto power at all costs at the expense of the party isn't lost on me.
And it's not as if the SWP was a perfectly functional organisation in every other respect other than it's attitude to womens liberation and how to deal appropriately with complaints against senior members. The problems were broader than that, but because of the particularly horrific nature of what's gone on this area has taken the focus, but think about how they've acted in practically every situation over the last 5-10 years it's been disastrous in everything they do not just in fighting sexism.
It's intriguing to read Birchall or Renton (or Spurski's on here) resignation letters and see so much sincerity towards this organisation, that at one point clearly had something going for it, because I've only been aware of or marginally involved in left politics since about 2003/4, and for that entire period they've been nothing but awful and an obstacle in practically every interaction I've had in any given context.
*and the depressing fact that you can put the SWP (or any socialist) side by side with the BNP in terms of a discredited leadership clinging onto power at all costs at the expense of the party isn't lost on me.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I have. Never again.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
How many sections does the IST have?
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
It doesn't have "sections" but instead has "affiliates", which is supposed to indicate looser organisation. 30 are listed on Wikipedia, but this includes some that seem to be defunct, some that are only a website, at least one that isn't an affiliate any more and quite a number that are one to five people strong.
The organisations of any notable size (ie more than twenty five activists) are in Britain, Greece, South Korea, Ireland, Spain, Australia, Holland, Egypt. That's at minimum. There are probably a few others too.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I did hear a report at the CWI conference this year that the RS in Egypt had split and a few were considering joining us - which would be massive as we have sweet FA in Egypt - but nothing seems to have materialised as yet.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Not sure "massive" is quite the right word there...
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Not sure "massive" is quite the right word there...
No, fair enough! But even having enough members for a couple of branches would represent a big improvement on nothing!
BK Double Stack
Reconstructed Marcyite
Unfortunately, we still have nothing there.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
i was gonna post a cathartic 'my experience' post but i've overthunk it and now i'm too tired.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Do it!
Oisin123
So Much for Subtlety
Probably. But the IST will never be the same as it was when Cliff and Harman were listened to with tremendous respect, thus giving the British SWP a disproportionate influence (and contrary to some people's view from the outside, all they ever had was influence, no policies were ever imposed upon us and I can remember Bambery and Stack being surprisingly sensitive to the whole issue of outside interference one time, when they wanted to encourage us to move from a monthly to a fortnightly paper). The British SWP standing will decline massively within the tendency and I expect that decline to continue over time as the consequences of this disaster work their way out. Having said that, if there are developments in terms of a re-composition of British opposition members in a new party that would pose an interesting question, internationally speaking.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
tomorrow.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
It will be interesting to see if that causes any problems on the wider left here or from the feminist groups. In general, I think people over here have been reluctant to put the boot into the local SWP about something that isn't their fault and that they had very limited capacity to influence, despite John M's lamentable intervention. Particularly when the British party still involved large numbers on both side of the issue. But now that the Brits have split, staying as a sister organisation looks more like taking the wrong side. Perhaps it will stay under the radar if the Irish org continue their current policy of not having high profile British SWP speakers over)
(Please note, this is absolutely not some kind of hint that the Irish SP is about to go on the offensive about it, just a general question about whether that benefit of the doubt will continue once the doubt diminishes).
Oisin123 said:
I suspect that size and resources played a role too, although those are also in the process of diminishing.
Oisin123 said:
This is interesting, because the British SWP certainly did intervene directly into other IST groups on occasion, including the Germans and the Americans. Without wanting to be overly cynical about it perhaps proximity ensured that the influence was so strong that crude intervention was unnecessary? Has the Irish SWP ever seriously disagreed with the Brits since KA took a (correct!) stand on the Iran-Iraq war? It certainly does seem to have followed the British group's change in perspective very closely over decades.
Oisin123 said:
Yes. It will be interesting to see if an ISTish group of some size and stability emerges (which is not guaranteed even assuming, as I think we can, that many of the current departees will set up some kind of new group). Particularly if it aligns with the ISO and perhaps SAlt in Australia.
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taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Rabbit worrier speaks:
http://histomatist.blogspot.ie/2013/12/why-i-am-not-resigning-from-swp.html
I'm quite entertained by this piece.
Firstly, he really, truly doesn't seem to have worked out that the SWP is a lot smaller than it claims to be and is in the process of shrinking further. Consequently he doesn't seem to realise that arguments that its "the party or the wilderness" which were dishonest and untrue when made by the old CP are plainly, crassly, idiotic when made on behalf of a group of the SWPs size.
Secondly, the notion that the faction handing over its blog to those leaving the party represents a mass decision to stay and acquiesce is so contorted in its reasoning as to be outright bewildering. It's preparation for an organised split, you clown.
Thirdly, the argument that it necessarily takes "decades" to build a revolutionary group of the puny stature of the SWP implies an acceptance that no significant social rupture will ever occur.
He does not, of course, deal with the core split issues at all.
http://histomatist.blogspot.ie/2013/12/why-i-am-not-resigning-from-swp.html
I'm quite entertained by this piece.
Firstly, he really, truly doesn't seem to have worked out that the SWP is a lot smaller than it claims to be and is in the process of shrinking further. Consequently he doesn't seem to realise that arguments that its "the party or the wilderness" which were dishonest and untrue when made by the old CP are plainly, crassly, idiotic when made on behalf of a group of the SWPs size.
Secondly, the notion that the faction handing over its blog to those leaving the party represents a mass decision to stay and acquiesce is so contorted in its reasoning as to be outright bewildering. It's preparation for an organised split, you clown.
Thirdly, the argument that it necessarily takes "decades" to build a revolutionary group of the puny stature of the SWP implies an acceptance that no significant social rupture will ever occur.
He does not, of course, deal with the core split issues at all.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
RW should fancy his chances of making the CC some day. What is he, early thirties?
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