SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Yes you know you're right actually. Guess it's a holding email until they decide how big this is and how to frame it politically.
Traditionally Audiotech has been a more loyal external supporter of the SWP than you - the fact he is saying this should make even you pay attention you cloth brained clod.
electric.avenue
lots of work to be done
If this is a serious question, two sheds, and you feel like a bit of a read (doesn't take too long), it's all here, in Cliff's 1984 book "Class Struggle and Women's Liberation":
http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1984/women/index.htm
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Just read a FB comment by a pro cc guy that made even me flinch "Where is your proof of this rape charge? You are spreading lies. The allegation was sexual harassment not rape." Even if this hack hasn't read the transcript he must be aware others will and know that he's talking shit. People telling themselves lies like this ain't going to help :-(
This does look like the end of the road for the SWP, unless they can somehow lose Comrade Delta. This would thin out the CC as his own supporters leave in sympathy or perhaps shame. Things can never be the same in the party. That would be a good thing. Like many posters on these boards I was a member for a while. It was the authoritative attitude that made me get out though. There are some very good people in the party however.
I notice on this thread which is about the SWP specifically, many posters have done the usual thing of going on about other groups on the left and their respective histories. This is not the place to re-visit those stories. This is a current crisis for the left and in the context of the larger political scene of the rise of the right presents a danger to us on the left.
I notice on this thread which is about the SWP specifically, many posters have done the usual thing of going on about other groups on the left and their respective histories. This is not the place to re-visit those stories. This is a current crisis for the left and in the context of the larger political scene of the rise of the right presents a danger to us on the left.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
The idea of sex pests in the left is shocking in itself. A contradiction one might say.
Although I am not a member of the SWP it saddens me greatly that it has come to this. I hope that the dissenters are able to get on track and do something about the lack of democracy in the party. My own experience with the SWP, ended abruptly years ago, when, after questioning a particular line, I was first “labeled” and then subjected to what I perceived as Stalinist behavior. I left in disgust. It’s interesting how the explanation for Stalinism is always condensed into a dogmatic answer of how Russia was isolated or backward. The organizational structure of the party is never really questioned and remains essentially the same. Power corrupts, and this for me is a dilemma because I can’t grasp the anarchist mode of organization, at all.
Back then, before I left, I got a clear glimpse of how Stalinism could evolve. One group holds power and sway and questioning them becomes impossible through member complacency, (the unquestioning votes at conference reflect this) loyalty and fear of rocking the boat. The organizational side of things (the culture) also dictates a psychological side, if you know what I mean. Arse lickers, however hackish and annoying they are, are rewarded, while questioners are put under pressure. This creates an unhealthy body. Now, in theory, the party is democratic and all can be changed at conference, but what really happens? Leadership is a necessity and a reality. The class struggle is also an historical reality. With the coming crisis, other forms of leadership/initiativewill inevitably begin to sprout. In Spain, the Indignados appeared over night and totally eclipsed all the existing groups, so who knows what might come up in the future.
Although I am not a member of the SWP it saddens me greatly that it has come to this. I hope that the dissenters are able to get on track and do something about the lack of democracy in the party. My own experience with the SWP, ended abruptly years ago, when, after questioning a particular line, I was first “labeled” and then subjected to what I perceived as Stalinist behavior. I left in disgust. It’s interesting how the explanation for Stalinism is always condensed into a dogmatic answer of how Russia was isolated or backward. The organizational structure of the party is never really questioned and remains essentially the same. Power corrupts, and this for me is a dilemma because I can’t grasp the anarchist mode of organization, at all.
Back then, before I left, I got a clear glimpse of how Stalinism could evolve. One group holds power and sway and questioning them becomes impossible through member complacency, (the unquestioning votes at conference reflect this) loyalty and fear of rocking the boat. The organizational side of things (the culture) also dictates a psychological side, if you know what I mean. Arse lickers, however hackish and annoying they are, are rewarded, while questioners are put under pressure. This creates an unhealthy body. Now, in theory, the party is democratic and all can be changed at conference, but what really happens? Leadership is a necessity and a reality. The class struggle is also an historical reality. With the coming crisis, other forms of leadership/initiativewill inevitably begin to sprout. In Spain, the Indignados appeared over night and totally eclipsed all the existing groups, so who knows what might come up in the future.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
The same people have spent 3 decades employing that end game...why is it so fucking wrong now...its an old feud...how convenient
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Those very same people use/d the web to carry out their attacks on individuals...see RA forum circa 2003...a fine example of reasoned debate and friendly banter...my arse.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Look Hocus Eye is right. This isn't the thread for excursions about Militant or Red Action or other groups.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Here's another pissed off member:
http://socialismartnature.tumblr.co...nternal-committee-exonerates-senior-member-of
It seems like they want to "take back the Party", however if they lost the vote at the Conference - narrowly but lost nonetheless - I can't see how that would happen unless there's somethng procedural.
http://socialismartnature.tumblr.co...nternal-committee-exonerates-senior-member-of
It seems like they want to "take back the Party", however if they lost the vote at the Conference - narrowly but lost nonetheless - I can't see how that would happen unless there's somethng procedural.
Well, many will try and carry on as normal! What d'you expect people who've been in the SWP for 30 years to do? And what's that observation got to do with being loyal or not to the SWP?
electric.avenue
lots of work to be done
One long-standing member in ****** has posted on facebook that the papersale went well today. Jeezus!
Edit: Two membership forms taken away!
Absolutely unfuckingbelievable given the situation. This is no wet behind the ears student (apology's to any students) either, nor someone who in the past would put up with any party hackery.
Yes, just checked, my fb swp friends seem to be carrying on as normal.
Talking about Sat sales and the like. 
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
http://www.leninology.com/2013/01/a-reply-to-central-committee.html
got quite a lot of time for Seymour actually.
got quite a lot of time for Seymour actually.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Nothing to do with me - just think that given your shared history the whole thing's a shame really. Anyway, no point derailing another thread with it.
Perhaps he meant that 1 member of the DC concluded that it was likely sexual harassment had taken place but not rape.
Otherwise, it's just too strange to say something like that when it's all over the media. Although it probably feels mad in the SWP right now, working out what's real.
electric.avenue
lots of work to be done
Ok, I've spent pretty much most of the day scouring the web and our collection of pamphlets, and can I hellers like find that Paul Foot one to quote from. But I think it was about the Haiti slave rebellion, and I read it at my then workplace when I was still yoof. What vexed me was that Foot mentioned rapes taking place as part of the rebellion, without labelling them for the unacceptable sexual violence that they were. Ok it was another time and another place, (the context of the rebellion). But it put me off joining the SWP for years, as it inevitably sowed the seed of an idea that some Marxist theoreticians found rape acceptable as an appropriate "punishment".
As for Cliff, 1984 (sorry for the copy and paste-a-thon):
"Tony Cliff
Class Struggle and Women’s Liberation
(1984)
From the Introduction:
In the later chapters of this book, we look at the contemporary women’s liberation movements in the United States and Britain. We consider their social composition and their mode of action. We show how these movements have focussed consistently on areas where men and women are at odds – rape, battered women, wages for housework – while ignoring or playing down the important struggles in which women are more likely to win the support of men: strikes, opposition to welfare cuts, equal pay, unionisation, abortion. The contemporary movements idealise women as victims of male supremacy, and not as fighting members of the working class. Instead of concentrating on where women are strongest – in the unions and workplaces – they concentrate on those areas where they are weakest. Hence these women’s movements have been pushed to the margins. They have been caught in a process of disintegration, although their ideas still hold a tremendous sway.
From Chapter 11:
A measure of how the women’s movement distanced itself from the working class is the changes in its platform of demands. As we have seen, the original 1971 demands (equal pay now, equal education and job opportunities, free contraception and abortion on demand and free 24-hour nurseries) suited the needs of working-class women. In 1975, two new demands were added: “Financial and legal independence” and “an end to all discrimination against lesbians and a woman’s right to define her own sexuality”. In 1978, at the last National Women’s Conference, the following demand was added: “Freedom from intimidation by threat or use of violence or sexual coercion, regardless of marital status; and an end to all laws, assumptions and institutions which perpetuate male dominance and men’s aggression towards women.” The original four demands were clear, aimed at changes in the real world and directed towards the state; the added ones largely related to “attitudes” and “assumptions”, to “personal politics”.
"
What this tells me is that, in Cliff's opinion, campaigning for improved support and treatment of rape victims was a bit of a distraction from what he considered to be the really important stuff, and yet what's come out in this discussion is that over the past few decades there really have been significant improvements in the way that rape victims are treated by the police, the courts and by the various support networks. I think that marginal improvements such as these really do make a big difference to people's lives in the here and now, and it gives them more confidence to fight and challenge other things.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Cheers for that - appreciate the effort. Will have a proper look through tmw. I may have the foot one somewhere here and will look in the morning as well.
electric.avenue
lots of work to be done
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Ta, I had a quick look at the introduction and will take another look tomorrow. He makes interesting points although I'm not sure I agree with them, but I do also feel a bit uncomfortable about a man telling women that they're the wrong kind of feminist.
To me there's an edge of prosthelitysing - yes we need feminism but it needs to be subsumed under the class struggle, so come and join us and do what we tell you to.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Some threads of a response coming out. One ultra loyal but thinking person mentioned to me that she thought Lenins Tomb for example had for some time been heading in a direction that was not part of the IS tradition on the question of women's oppression. And that wasn't a snap response to his outburst now but something she'd clearly been thinking about before. That said even loyal folk like her know this isn't just going to go away just cause Kimber says its a closed issue.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Fair enough, but thought since it was mentioned it might be relevant. I'll find out somehow though, and then maybe I will set up a separate thread...maybe I will...
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Oh God there are some really bad taste jokes doing the rounds on this now. A mate keeps texting them to me as he gets them from other ex members. He says it's cathartic somehow, gallows humour and all that.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
BB have to say I find your replies slightly disturbing, it does remind me of stalinist slander. Everyone who is against the leadership is either politically written off (and was probably always that way) and/or personally insulted. Literally every person or group of oppositionists in the SWP has been labelled like this by you. With barely a murmur of criticism about the CC majority. The SWP has been useless as an organisation for years, in almost every respect, but instead you concentrate on academic theory to prove that they are still holding the flag for the one true way. You didn't come back on what I said earlier but you basically seem to be saying nothing much wrong has happened and the leadership is right and good politically and they should just carry on as is, I can't see any other interpretation of your posts.
What is disturbing in the latest reply to the CC from lenins tomb is that it now transpires that at the conference two years ago members were told all that had happened was that comrade delta had had a messy affair but it was ok. They then orchestrated a standing ovation for him that he basked in. When all the time they knew a rape allegation had been made. That is shameful and makes them utter scum in my view.
What is disturbing in the latest reply to the CC from lenins tomb is that it now transpires that at the conference two years ago members were told all that had happened was that comrade delta had had a messy affair but it was ok. They then orchestrated a standing ovation for him that he basked in. When all the time they knew a rape allegation had been made. That is shameful and makes them utter scum in my view.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
I'm not a member of the SWP, but would it possible to hold an extraordinary general meeting (or similar) to disband/unelect the present Central Committee? It seems to me as an outsider that maybe party members have no confidence on the Central Committee given how they handled this matter AND how they are close friends of comrade delta, and perhaps a clean slate is called for.
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
Even proposing something like that would likely see whoever suggested it expelled on some pretext or other. Witness the Matt Kidd incident a few years ago on here when he posted a report from their annual conference without seeking permission and Martin Smith called him personally and expelled him over the phone solely for that.
Bottom line with the Swappies is that if they want to get rid of people then they can and will. Joining the Swappies is like joining the Army in that they have a rule for everything. Unlike the Army (and more like the Mafia) whether or not rules are enforced or overlooked depends on whether or you're not a senior figure, or are well in with those at the top table or know where some bodies are buried. The degree to which a member has either friends at court, information that would damage the party if it went public or a blend of both is usually the degree to which that member can bend or break rules that for others would be an expulsion offence.
It's not that the SWP leadership doesn't enforce discipline. It does, however, enforce it selectively and what's overlooked for one member may well see a different member being shown the door for exactly the same breach of party rules.
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