SWP expulsions and squabbles

[frogwoman]

No frogs, it's liberals who believe in equality between the sexes.

You can't want to overturn a class society and end up with a society where half of it are still second class citizens though. This is a completely separate issue to identity politics bullshit and the fact that according to their bollocks margaret thatcher can end up being more oppressed than a miner because she is a woman, you can be a feminist and still be a marxist, still see the economic system the way society is structured, as the root of all of this. It would seem to me that all socialists would be feminists in some way if they are actually serious about their politics.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Please will those PM'ing me to leave this alone please pass on the same request to those individuals behind the distorted attacks on Dave Hann, his family and people associated with his anti fascist legacy.

I didn't PM you asking you not to say owt, spill.

 

[cesare]

There are lots of different ways of being a feminist though, there are marxist feminists as well. I would say that an understanding of patriarchy (and i dont mean any identity politics bollocks but an understanding of the way that social relations has basically put the role of women, the unpaid labour done by women, rape and the fear of rape as a tool of enforcing a social structure etc) is pretty intrinsic to the idea of being a socialist, it is something that Marx talked about iirc.

It'd be great if someone (not aiming this at you btw) could further educate me on where Marx talked about this.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I've got a close friend who was in the SWP for decades (but not now). He's a good man who is a good judge of character. I mentioned, in isolation, the name of the alleged rapist, and asked if he knew him. His face clouded and he said with vehemence "He's a thug." I told him about the rape allegation (he'd not heard) and he wasn't in the least surprised. He was pretty appalled at the way it was being dealt with too as being a totally inappropriate response.

Ex SWP member in my union branch said he was always a nasty piece of work.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Leeds University SWSS Statement:

'Leeds University SWSS condemns, in the strongest possible terms, the recent handling of very serious accusations against a leading member of the SWP Central Committee. We are also extremely disappointed that SWP national conference voted to ratify the decision and process of the Disputes Committee responsible for the investigation.'

One stop shop - where did this leeds swss statement come from?

Saw it on a friends Facebook wall.

 

[Red Cat]

Of course all socialists are opposed to women's oppression but the SWP have a class analysis of it and not a feminist (patriarchy) one. A political critique of feminism does not equate to having no analysis of women's oppression nor to rendering it irrelevant.

Like I said earlier, everyone's talking in different languages.

 

[frogwoman]

but feminism means lots of different things to different people. and when someone says they are "against feminism" ... well

 

[articul8]

Class and patriarchy are unrelated and incommensurable levels of analysis?

 

[Red Cat]

Yes, as someone else pointed out it, it just sounds weird to those who aren't aware of the debate. I would expect active members of the SWP to be aware of it though.

ETA: In reply to froggy.

 

[past caring]

is this extraordinary statement recent or from some previous spat?

He's been brown bread for about five years now.....

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I didn't PM you asking you not to say owt, spill.

No one is PMing him.

And this thread is for the SWP start another if you want to discuss another group.

 

[newbie]

ah.

 

[articul8]

Yes, as someone else pointed out it, it just sounds weird to those who aren't aware of the debate. I would expect active members of the SWP to be aware of it though.

Well that sounds like a totally defective argument. No more justified that when millies would say homosexuality was a bourgeois deviation.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

No more justified that when millies would say homosexuality was a bourgeois deviation.

No doubt you'll be able to produce the article, public or internal, where Militant argued that? Right?

I wouldn't want to think that you were peddling stupid left wing urban myths that you have no excuse for believing.

 

[DaveCinzano]

No doubt you'll be able to produce the article, public or internal, where Militant argued that? Right?

Let me guess, the Michael Crick book?

 

[articul8]

You dispute Ted grant argued this?

 

[two sheds]

Of course all socialists are opposed to women's oppression

Is that true? I'd understood women were still fairly oppressed in Soviet Russia for example.

 

[Riklet]

You dispute Ted grant argued this?

is that the same as millitant? you are such a muppet.

will the recruitment drive be on soon for your crew to soak up some of the radical realistic activists from this SWP fiasco?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

You dispute Ted grant argued this?

I dispute that Militant ever had a position that homosexuality was "a bourgeois deviation". Should I take it from that failure to produce your evidence that you don't in fact have any, and that you were indeed peddling stupid leftist urban myths that you have no excuse for believing?

 

[articul8]

He was the key theorist behind militants emergence. Accordingly, they were slow to defend gay rights

 

[Red Cat]

Class and patriarchy are unrelated and incommensurable levels of analysis?

Here is a recent article which explains their position better than I can:

http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=656

 

[The39thStep]

Very little political discussion. No change there then.

what is your take on this then?

 

[Red Cat]

Well that sounds like a totally defective argument. No more justified that when millies would say homosexuality was a bourgeois deviation.

What sounds like a defective argument?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

He was the key theorist behind militants emergence. Accordingly, they were slow to defend gay rights

Look at you trying to weasel out of it.

Militant did not have a position that homosexuality was "a bourgeois deviation". It took no position on gay liberation at all until the 80s, and that was quite bad enough without you peddling stupid lies.

 

[articul8]

Soc appeal have continued to make alliances with anti-gay forces in Russia. Do you deny that others were ahead of the curve on this issue?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Soc appeal have continued to make alliances with anti-gay forces in Russia. Do you deny that others were ahead of the curve on this issue?

How many posts are you going to go before you retract your straightforward falsehood?

 

[articul8]

Look at you trying to weasel out of it.

Militant did not have a position that homosexuality was "a bourgeois deviation". It took no position on gay liberation at all until the 80s, and that was quite bad enough without you peddling stupid lies.

And why was that?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

And why was that?

Fourth post since you've been caught in a falsehood and still you won't retract it. Full marks for idiot perseverance.

 

[Red Cat]

Well that sounds like a totally defective argument. No more justified that when millies would say homosexuality was a bourgeois deviation.

Sorry, my post was in response to frogwoman not you.

My response to you was a link to an article that explains the position of the SWP and their critique of patriarchy.

 

[articul8]

Fourth post since you've been caught in a falsehood and still you won't retract it. Full marks for idiot perseverance.

So why the reticence if there werent reservations from the leadership?