SWP expulsions and squabbles

[mutley]

SWP constitution - if 20% of banches call for it there has to be a conference. It's never happened though.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

BB have to say I find your replies slightly disturbing, it does remind me of stalinist slander. Everyone who is against the leadership is either politically written off (and was probably always that way) and/or personally insulted. Literally every person or group of oppositionists in the SWP has been labelled like this by you. With barely a murmur of criticism about the CC majority. The SWP has been useless as an organisation for years, in almost every respect, but instead you concentrate on academic theory to prove that they are still holding the flag for the one true way. You didn't come back on what I said earlier but you basically seem to be saying nothing much wrong has happened and the leadership is right and good politically and they should just carry on as is, I can't see any other interpretation of your posts.

Ok can see how you'd say that. I've been emphasising the political differences that many of the opposition clearly have with core IS politics because nobody else is admitting them and instead is focussing almost exclusively on the handling of one case. That case is very important but the positions people are taking on it dovetail with broader ideological directions they are taking. Doesn't mean the issues with that case don't need answering, they bloody well do and the biggest mistake the cc is making is to pretend this was closed as an issue by the vote at conference. But nor can the debate only be about this one case. Because the oppo have different strands and some of those are clearly anti Marxist in the sense that old school Cliffites would recognise.

As it goes I think the Dem Cent faction had it about right in terms of a position on all this. The regime is too rigid, probably always has been. The expulsion of the FB 4 for discussing a faction in the one period members are supposed to be allowed to was a mad step. That did cross the line from hard Bolshevik politics over to creeping Stalinist methods. There is more than one way to practice dem cent and the party needs to change. But the Dem Dents are also generally made up of people who recognise that the politics of the Walkers and Seymour's are headed somewhere they don't want to go. I agree with them.

I don't know Tom so could only base criticism on what I thought was clear from his letter. I did insult Seymour but feel no compunction about that because I've been doing it for years even when he was the Profs intellectual ally. he never says anything in two words that can be said in twenty and is far too impressed with his own academic brilliance. And his approach is far to eclectic for my liking. The model for Marxist intellectual for me was Harman, very open to new ideas but always clear about his core methodology. Seymour isn't in that ballpark, far too much of an impressionist, flighty approach. Plus it's been clear from his arguments on all sorts of things where he's been headed for ages.

 

[emanymton]

I'm not a member of the SWP, but would it possible to hold an extraordinary general meeting (or similar) to disband/unelect the present Central Committee? It seems to me as an outsider that maybe party members have no confidence on the Central Committee given how they handled this matter AND how they are close friends of comrade delta, and perhaps a clean slate is called for.

From their constitution.

A Special Conference may be called by the Central Committee or at the request of 20 percent of the branches. The decisions of a Special Conference are as binding as those of Annual Conference.

 

[bignose1]

Nothing to do with me - just think that given your shared history the whole thing's a shame really. Anyway, no point derailing another thread with it.

Of course its a shame, they were my comrades and friends once but you have to stand up against them. Does it work ..theres times when I think probably not and some good people on here believe I go far too 'weird' on the subject. But really I wouldnt give them the time of the day if they didnt spout such appalling lies about people. Ive been on the receiving end and quite honestly their sloppiness concerning me is laughable....all the Searchlight stuff...NR...But deep down a very malevolent agenda lurks...so swap lazy research for deliberate mis information.

 

[emanymton]

Ok can see how you'd say that. I've been emphasising the political differences that many of the opposition clearly have with core IS politics because nobody else is admitting them and instead is focussing almost exclusively on the handling of one case. That case is very important but the positions people are taking on it dovetail with broader ideological directions they are taking. Doesn't mean the issues with that case don't need answering, they bloody well do and the biggest mistake the cc is making is to pretend this was closed as an issue by the vote at conference. But nor can the debate only be about

I think you are right about the politics of Walker and Seymour, but I don't think it matters. Anyone who calls themselves a Marxist or a Feminist should have pretty much the same reaction to the DC report n my opinion. And you cannot say the same for all those who oppose the DC report. What about the 4 CC members who broke ranks, have they never grasped the core of IS politics? What about Viv S and pat S, both ex CC members, have they never grasped the core of IS politics? The list of people who have must be pretty short?

 

[emanymton]

What is disturbing in the latest reply to the CC from lenins tomb is that it now transpires that at the conference two years ago members were told all that had happened was that comrade delta had had a messy affair but it was ok. They then orchestrated a standing ovation for him that he basked in. When all the time they knew a rape allegation had been made. That is shameful and makes them utter scum in my view.

This is not true the rape allegation was not made until september 2012, prior to that the allegation was of sexual harassment, which was reported to the SWP conference.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Worth saying that even within the IS there have always been different models of dem cent. Dunno what it's like now but in my day the Irish org was practically an anarchist free for all in the eyes of people on the cc over here. Nobody used the terms faction but we pretty much had permanent ones and there was constant discussion between people who could be loosely described as factions, usually in pubs of course as it was pre the social media age. And yet we functioned as a unified org despite that. More than once I remember the look on Kieran Allen's face when we'd be slightly amused shall we say about the latest example of a more rigid approach in the British org. Sometimes he'd even have a bit of a go at cc members about it, ironically enough Bambery is the one springs to mind most readily. I don't think we thought differences of opinion on regime where fundamental or about anything core to the politics. But I doubt any of us imagined how big an issue they would someday become!

 

[Bakunin]

From their constitution.

Though one wonders, given that the CC seems to have already decided its 'line', whether any arm-twisting and vote-begging might go on behind the scenes to ensure that this particular precedent in party history isn't actually set.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

This is not true the rape allegation was not made until september 2012, prior to that the allegation was of sexual harassment, which was reported to the SWP conference.

That's right isn't it, I had to re read Seymour three times on that cause it feels like he's being a bit slippery on this aspect of it.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I think you are right about the politics of Walker and Seymour, but I don't think it matters. Anyone who calls themselves a Marxist or a Feminist should have pretty much the same reaction to the DC report n my opinion. And you cannot say the same for all those who oppose the DC report. What about the 4 CC members who broke ranks, have they never grasped the core of IS politics? What about Viv S and pat S, both ex CC members, have they never grasped the core of IS politics? The list of people who have must be pretty short?

No I agree, Viv and Pat seem to have it about right in all this and they're both solid cadre. In some ways Pat has always been the conscience of the party which is why what he says carrys more weight with a whole layer of people. Would he not have been in the Dem Cent camp though rather than the other lot or have I got that wrong? You're closer to the people involved I think so I bow to your understanding of the make up of the different strands.

 

[emanymton]

That's right isn't it, I had to re read Seymour three times on that cause it feels like he's being a bit slippery on this aspect of it.

He's a bit vague, sloppy writing or deliberate obfuscation?

 

[emanymton]

No I agree, Viv and Pat seem to have it about right in all this and they're both solid cadre. In some ways Pat has always been the conscience of the party which is why what he says carrys more weight with a whole layer of people. Would he not have been in the Dem Cent camp though rather than the other lot or have I got that wrong? You're closer to the people involved I think so I bow to your understanding of the make up of the different strands.

I think you are right they would be in the Dem Cent camp if any. The whole thing is in such a mess at the moment it is hard to be clear about anything. X always seemed to have a really good grasp of IS politics, much better than mine has ever been.

 

[emanymton]

I think I will need to read back over everything to try a pick apart all the different strands, just not sure I can stomach it.

 

[Red Cat]

Ok can see how you'd say that. I've been emphasising the political differences that many of the opposition clearly have with core IS politics because nobody else is admitting them and instead is focussing almost exclusively on the handling of one case. That case is very important but the positions people are taking on it dovetail with broader ideological directions they are taking. Doesn't mean the issues with that case don't need answering, they bloody well do and the biggest mistake the cc is making is to pretend this was closed as an issue by the vote at conference. But nor can the debate only be about this one case. Because the oppo have different strands and some of those are clearly anti Marxist in the sense that old school Cliffites would recognise.

fwiw bolshiebhoy it was clear to me that's what you were doing. I did point that out (that you were making an analysis) but my post was ignored in the midst of all the moral indignation.

 

[The39thStep]

Post #1341

is that it?

 

[Red Cat]

What is disturbing in the latest reply to the CC from lenins tomb is that it now transpires that at the conference two years ago members were told all that had happened was that comrade delta had had a messy affair but it was ok. They then orchestrated a standing ovation for him that he basked in. When all the time they knew a rape allegation had been made. That is shameful and makes them utter scum in my view.

You're just looking for anything to fuel your outrage. There's no reason for you to believe Seymour's version of events. The opposition didn't argue this. Why believe him and not others?

I think this thread is a good example of people believing that they want to believe just as the CC and DC are accused.

 

[Bakunin]

I think this thread is a good example of people believing that they want to believe just as the CC and DC are accused.

The CC taking centre-stage in a witch-hunt?

Surely not.

(Not with them being the witches and burnt at the stake atop a sacrificial blaze of unsold Socialist Workers, anyway...).

 

[articul8]

fwiw bolshiebhoy it was clear to me that's what you were doing. I did point that out (that you were making an analysis) but my post was ignored in the midst of all the moral indignation.

In what sense is anything Seymour or walker have said "anti-marxist"?

 

[cesare]

fwiw bolshiebhoy it was clear to me that's what you were doing. I did point that out (that you were making an analysis) but my post was ignored in the midst of all the moral indignation.

I'm not sure I like my criticisms of how a rape allegation was conducted being badged as "moral indignation" tbh.

 

[SpineyNorman]

my post was ignored in the midst of all the moral indignation.

And another mask slips.

 

[The39thStep]

Ok, French trots in the 40s explicitly argued homosexuality was a bourgeois deviation. Militant denigrated the importance of the issue until much later than some other left currents. Is it so unlikely that key theorists of an earlier generation were resistant? Perhaps Nigel can quote from Ted grants support for homosexual rights?

They have absorbed all the nonsense of the petty bourgeois – woman’s lib, gay lib, black nationalism, guerillaism – you name it! Not a trace of the old ideas remains.

Ted Grant http://www.marxist.com/the-theoreti...on-of-the-fourth-interview-with-ted-grant.htm

I am sure it was out of context.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not sure I like my criticisms of how a rape allegation was conducted being badged as "moral indignation" tbh.

My comment wasn't aimed at every post but those critisising bb's posts as supporting the SWP cc when he wasn't doing that. As I said clearly enough.

 

[Red Cat]

And another mask slips.

Oh fuck off. This is a very emotional thread and people are getting accused of holding positions they don't have. I'm NOT saying that criticisms of the way in which this was handled are only moral and not political.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

And another mask slips.

That is pretty poor. RC was saying something was lost amidst the outrage, not that the outrage was misplaced.

 

[Red Cat]

In what sense is anything Seymour or walker have said "anti-marxist"?

Did I say it was anti-marxist?

 

[past caring]

Of course its a shame, they were my comrades and friends once but you have to stand up against them. Does it work ..theres times when I think probably not and some good people on here believe I go far too 'weird' on the subject. But really I wouldnt give them the time of the day if they didnt spout such appalling lies about people. Ive been on the receiving end and quite honestly their sloppiness concerning me is laughable....all the Searchlight stuff...NR...But deep down a very malevolent agenda lurks...so swap lazy research for deliberate mis information.

To reiterate - this isn't the thread.

But nevertheless, it's worth noting how you bring this up on the thread where it isn't being discussed and where those posters who might be in a position to respond are not contributing (so there's thus much more chance of your allegations slipping under the radar) rather than the BTF thread where you've been roundly trounced. You really are one slimy horrible cunt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This does look like the end of the road for the SWP, unless they can somehow lose Comrade Delta. This would thin out the CC as his own supporters leave in sympathy or perhaps shame.

I suspect that you're projecting your own fully-developed set of principles onto people with few, Hokey. What's most likely to happen is that Comrade PoloShirt will be expelled for an "unrelated offence" (something to do with misappropriation of movement funds or property, perhaps), and everything will continue as before.

Things can never be the same in the party. That would be a good thing. Like many posters on these boards I was a member for a while. It was the authoritative attitude that made me get out though. There are some very good people in the party however.

Ain't that the truth. If the party's policies truly reflected the will of the membership, it'd far more likely be a source of good. As it is, more and more people, inside the SWP and out, are coming to realise that the CC may be nowt more than a racket.

I notice on this thread which is about the SWP specifically, many posters have done the usual thing of going on about other groups on the left and their respective histories. This is not the place to re-visit those stories. This is a current crisis for the left and in the context of the larger political scene of the rise of the right presents a danger to us on the left.

True, but there are quite a few lefties out there who underestimate that danger, usually the same ones that ignore the fact that what kept the BNP from making a decent show at Barking and Dagenham wasn't a natural local anti-fascist tendency, it was a full-scale mobilisation of every leftie (aligned and non-aligned) that could get there, getting out on the doorsteps and blitz-canvassing the fuck out of the constituency in a way that the BNP couldn't match. Even so, the BNP almost doubled their vote.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Oh fuck off. This is a very emotional thread and people are getting accused of holding positions they don't have. I'm NOT saying that criticisms of the way in which this was handled are only moral and not political.

That is pretty poor. RC was saying something was lost amidst the outrage, not that the outrage was misplaced.

Sorry but I'm not convinced - the accusations of political impurity seem like a smoke screen from where I'm standing. Have a look back at BB's posts on this thread and tell me with a straight face that I'm wrong. Especially when the comments are made when deltagate specifically is what's being discussed.

I dunno though, maybe I'm just allowing my emotions to combine with my deeply engrained bourgeois morality, resulting in - shock - horror - moral indignation.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

SpineyNorman, I am not impressed with your coining of the word "deltagate". Are you a tabloid writer in your day job?

 

[equationgirl]

Even proposing something like that would likely see whoever suggested it expelled on some pretext or other. Witness the Matt Kidd incident a few years ago on here when he posted a report from their annual conference without seeking permission and Martin Smith called him personally and expelled him over the phone solely for that.

Bottom line with the Swappies is that if they want to get rid of people then they can and will. Joining the Swappies is like joining the Army in that they have a rule for everything. Unlike the Army (and more like the Mafia) whether or not rules are enforced or overlooked depends on whether or you're not a senior figure, or are well in with those at the top table or know where some bodies are buried. The degree to which a member has either friends at court, information that would damage the party if it went public or a blend of both is usually the degree to which that member can bend or break rules that for others would be an expulsion offence.

It's not that the SWP leadership doesn't enforce discipline. It does, however, enforce it selectively and what's overlooked for one member may well see a different member being shown the door for exactly the same breach of party rules.

That sounds pretty corrupt to me, especially given this a party supposedly dedicated to socialism. Some animals are definitely more equal than others