SWP expulsions and squabbles

[butchersapron]

New Labour?

Not of the tradition.

 

[Karmickameleon]

Not of the tradition.

So which tradition are you talking about?

 

[butchersapron]

So which tradition are you talking about?

All non leninist ones. As i said. I dare you to say that they're shit because the swp did not do leninism properly. I dare you.

 

[Karmickameleon]

All non leninist ones. As i said. I dare you to say that they're shit because the swp did not do leninism properly. I dare you.

So anarchists?? BTW, when I hear the word "Leninist", I'd reach for my revolver if I had one. One thing is the Leninist tradition, another is the "Leninist" version (ie interpretations of the former).

 

[butchersapron]

Review.

 

[emanymton]

No. Actually yes. All non-leninist traditions.

Isn't this just saying that non-leninist traditions know better than leninist traditions though. though?

 

[butchersapron]

Isn't this just saying that non-leninist traditions know better than leninist traditions though. though?

Not really.They certainly know better about certain things.

 

[Karmickameleon]

Review.

Review Leninism or "Leninism"?? I'm at a party (the enjoyable kind) at the moment so no time to answer. But read Victor Serge.

 

[barney_pig]

It's worth considering that what rebellious swp members read of Serge is Serges own version of his history; other people were much less impressed with his role either in France or later in Russia.
Serge has always been the SWPs favourite "anarchist", ignoring that from at least 1917 onwards he was nothing of the sort.

 

[butchersapron]

Review Leninism or "Leninism"?? I'm at a party (the enjoyable kind) at the moment so no time to answer. But read Victor Serge.

You're telling me to read serge? Really?

The person whose proletarian standpoint got to be so trusted she was on the DC - that means committed year on year activity and trust from above. You let that happen and year after year you didn't challenge it.

Seems pretty clear that the the debate is not about the early 90s intake (students,middle class, rootless) - you lot never counted, but just keeping control.

 

[Karmickameleon]

You're telling me to read serge? Really?

The person whose proletarian standpoint got to be so trusted she was on the DC - that means committed year on year activity and trust from above. You let that happen and year after year you didn't challenge it.

Seems pretty clear that the the debate is not about the early 90s intake (students,middle class, rootless) - you lot never counted, but just keeping control.

I haven't been a member of the SWP for a long time, but like many ex-members I identify with the tradition, which has a lot of value. Perhaps I should say "had", because thanks to the Prof and co that is rapidly going down the drain. The SWP will implode in slow motion, but what is valuable in that tradition will remain. Back to the party (for a drink, I mean...)

 

[oskarsdrum]

butchers out of interest, are you fr binning the whole post-68 IS? factory branches, shopfloor newsletters, women's voice and all? admittedly there must've been some kind of widespread rot or Cliff wouldn't have got away with doing what he did from 74-77, typified by Hallas' capitulation, but I'm not asking after perfection here.

 

[laptop]

Not really.They certainly know better about certain things.

Especially, er, knowledge...

 

[Red Cat]

No. Actually yes. All non-leninist traditions.

The whole notion of a vanguard invites a projection of our own knowledge, understanding and experience into political experts outside of ourselves, as individuals, as a class.

So how do we (collectively) develop a political understanding that we can call our own?

 

[butchersapron]

butchers out of interest, are you fr binning the whole post-68 IS? factory branches, shopfloor newsletters, women's voice and all? admittedly there must've been some kind of widespread rot or Cliff wouldn't have got away with doing what he did from 74-77, typified by Hallas' capitulation, but I'm not asking after perfection here.

I don't have the experience to talk about that. Lots of people on here do - i'm not going to tag them, i know their reading. My reading is that this is and was irrelevant to class struggle.

 

[Pickman's model]

I haven't been a member of the SWP for a long time, but like many ex-members I identify with the tradition, which has a lot of value. Perhaps I should say "had", because thanks to the Prof and co that is rapidly going down the drain. The SWP will implode in slow motion, but what is valuable in that tradition will remain. Back to the party (for a drink, I mean...)

what sort of value?

 

[Pickman's model]

Review Leninism or "Leninism"?? I'm at a party (the enjoyable kind) at the moment so no time to answer. But read Victor Serge.

it can't be that enjoyable a party if you're posting about the swp instead of having a laugh with people irl.

 

[butchersapron]

The whole notion of a vanguard invites a projection of our own knowledge, understanding and experience into political experts outside of ourselves, as individuals, as a class.

So how do we (collectively) develop a political understanding that we can call our own?

Vanguardism means the opposite - the injection of outside experience (tarted as theory) from those have distilled the experience for us (you might call it the proletarian standpoint)

 

[laptop]

Is the "proletarian standpoint" something to do with adopting a mockney whine?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is the "proletarian standpoint" something to do with adopting a mockney whine?

what accent do you use for your usual whine?

 

[butchersapron]

The whole notion of a vanguard invites a projection of our own knowledge, understanding and experience into political experts outside of ourselves, as individuals, as a class.

So how do we (collectively) develop a political understanding that we can call our own?

Get rid of the very notion of a vanguard then. History did.

 

[laptop]

what accent do you use for your usual whine?

One uses whatever one acquires naturally, doesn't one?

 

[Pickman's model]

One uses whatever one acquires naturally, doesn't one?

so in your case that would be a wheedling whine which engenders antipathy in the audience.

 

[Red Cat]

Vanguardism means the opposite - the injection of outside experience (tarted as theory) from those have distilled the experience for us (you might call it the proletarian standpoint)

Well, if vanguardism fails then that's an accurate description of a one way process but if vanguardism is successful then it entails giving that experience (theory) an authority that your own lacks.

 

[butchersapron]

Well, if vanguardism fails then that's an accurate description of a one way process but if vanguardism is successful then it entails giving that experience (theory) an authority that your own lacks.

What?

 

[butchersapron]

Are you saying because of 1917 then DC ? They are.

 

[Karmickameleon]

it can't be that enjoyable a party if you're posting about the swp instead of having a laugh with people irl.

Have you heard of multi-tasking???

 

[discokermit]

butchers out of interest, are you fr binning the whole post-68 IS? factory branches, shopfloor newsletters, women's voice and all? admittedly there must've been some kind of widespread rot or Cliff wouldn't have got away with doing what he did from 74-77, typified by Hallas' capitulation, but I'm not asking after perfection here.

i would go back further. british trotskyism owes too much to the communist party it emerged from.

 

[laptop]

so in your case that would be a wheedling whine which engenders antipathy in the audience.

I think you're confusing me with an SWP member after a mockney refresher session...

I'm not aware of having either whined or wheedled in years...

 

[Pickman's model]

Have you heard of multi-tasking???

yes but you're not doing it.