SWP expulsions and squabbles

[andysays]

and picked up yet again for not quite conveying what I intended... ah well... good point, well made

I wasn't trying to pick up on you, just make a point of clarification.

It's only butchersapron who always conveys exactly what he intends, or at least if he doesn't, it's always someone else's fault...

ETA: wasn't trying to pick

 

[discokermit]

Where is there anything in my post, or discokermit's, that says anything about "with no investigation"?

whether frank thought he was a rapist or not would be irrelevant.

there could have been an ivestigation, but it wasn't important. if frank thought he should go, he'd be gone.

i once asked him about a birmingham comrade who had been expelled for rape, if he thought he did it or not. he said he wasn't there to administer bourgeois justice, he was there to do what was best for the swp.

 

[andysays]

discokermit

Fair enough. What do you think his reaction would have been to the now known facts which the investigation did reveal?

 

[butchersapron]

Where is there anything in my post, or discokermit's, that says anything about "with no investigation"?

We're also not talking about "people", we're talking about one particular person at the very top of the hierarchy. It's precisely a sign of top-heavy bureaucracy power that the "investigation" process led to the completely fucked-up result it did.

I'm not arguing (and apologies if it came across this way) that someone with a bit of sense should have moved to expel Smith if he wouldn't go of his own volition simply "for the good of the party" regardless of the ultimate right or wrongness of his position, but that in this case, as in many others, doing the right thing would actually have been the right thing for the organisation as well.



No, it wasn't, but thanks for expanding/clarifying

Oh come on.

i must add, and it's a bit weird to say this, but if there were still a control commission, and frank chaired the meetings about delta, i'm pretty sure he would have expelled him. whether frank thought he was a rapist or not would be irrelevant. he would have forseen the damage to the party it could inflict and kicked him out.

 

[discokermit]

discokermit

Fair enough. What do you think his reaction would have been to the now known facts which the investigation did reveal?

fairly irrelevant as he would have already kicked him out. no announcement, bit of gossip, pretty soon everyone would have forgot about him.

 

[andysays]

Oh come on.

dk has already brought that bit to my attention, but the question is not simply whether he was a rapist, but whether given the things which the investigation eventually, in a drip-drip way, uncovered and revealed about what he had done, expulsion was the right thing to do - both because it was the right thing, and because it was the right thing for the party.

That's the point I'm trying to get across, and apologies if I (still) haven't made it as clearly as I would like!

 

[andysays]

fairly irrelevant as he would have already kicked him out. no announcement, bit of gossip, pretty soon everyone would have forgot about him.

So you're saying he would have pre-empted any investigation by kicking him out straight away?

That would not be my idea of the right way to do it...

 

[discokermit]

just remembered Oisin123 asking frank one marxism why andy wilson had been expelled. this sort of thing happened a few times when i was with frank.

 

[The39thStep]

I can only repeat the comment I made months ago and that was that someone with some nouse shoukld have clearly told Delta that his behaviour wasn't acceptable and that he had a month to choose between his lifestyle or the organisation, after that the organsiation would choose for him.

 

[discokermit]

So you're saying he would have pre-empted any investigation by kicking him out straight away?

That would not be my idea of the right way to do it...

but it would be the one of least danger to the party, which was all his job was concerned with. and he took that very seriously.

 

[andysays]

I can only repeat the comment I made months ago and that was that someone with some nouse shoukld have clearly told Delta that his behaviour wasn't acceptable and that he had a month to choose between his lifestyle or the organisation, after that the organsiation would choose for him.

You've said, simply and clearly, what I've been attempting, in a totally incoherent and inadequate way, to say for the past hour

 

[emanymton]

there are critiques to be made of some of his behaviour and choices over the years but yes, overall. and a fierce fighter. and one of the most intelligent people i've ever met.
frank used to stay at jim nichols' house everytime he was in london, i had fixed myself to frank like a wart the first branch meeting i went to, his little apprentice and chauffeur, so i got to stay there as well. it was interesting to watch that lot in his presence, foot, nichol, holborow all adored him.

there were some contradictions though and i think this is an apt place to mention them. he was involved in the birmingham engineers thing in the seventies, then was the control commision chair that expelled his former opposition comrades. he was the only person who ever suggested to andy wilson setting up a secret faction, then was chair of his expulsion committee. he played a leading role in our branch (excluding maybe half a dozen members out of thirtyish who we knew didn't agree) sending in a piece for the pre conference bulletin, yet became mute as the fulltimer and the fanatics wrecked the branch.

hallas was the same.

they had their reasons, which i think were genuinely held and honourable, but i think they were wrong. maybe wrong isn't correct, they were both veterans of various faction fights and always came out on the winning side and with some influence, so maybe they knew what they were doing but to me, something doesn't sit right.

what do i know though. i'm a rubbish revolutionary.

Mate you sound a better revolutionary than I will ever be, and head and shoulders ahead of most of what's left in the SWP

 

[discokermit]

.

check out the videos from the amm fringe meeting at marxism. you'll love it.

 

[discokermit]

Mate you sound a better revolutionary than I will ever be, and head and shoulders ahead of most of what's left in the SWP

no, i'm shit at it. poor discipline.

shouting, rabble rousing contributions from the floor and rioting are the only things i'm good at. pretty limiting for a revolutionary.

 

[Oisin123]

just remembered Oisin123 asking frank one marxism why andy wilson had been expelled. this sort of thing happened a few times when i was with frank.

There is a certain type of activist who thinks that long words are not for working class militants. Now it's true that if you are encouraging large numbers of people to fight over a particular injustice, there's not a lot of call for Hegelian phrases. But ever since Engels noted how it was working class audiences who strove most eagerly to grasp Darwin's ideas in the great public debates of the 1860s, it's also been obvious that there are working class activists who have a great drive to master all forms of political and cultural theory. Frank was one of those. I recall him telling me about how as an apprentice at the car factory he formed a Capital readers group and after a few weeks, him and his mates were telling the foremen to stop trying to increase the surplus value the managers were squeezing from the workers' labour. Similarly, when I was living in Rossington, I was friends with miners from Armthorpe whose lockers were stuffed with books about the Russian Revolution. There was a 'red shift' at that pit, which reckoned its descent from AJ Cook in the 1920s, the members of whom refused to work if a pit deputy was in the vicinity and whose older members politicised the newer arrivals. If you wanted to lose all respect from these miners, you'd patronise them with a Marxism for Dummies version of revolutionary theory.
Frank was wrong about Andy, though. Anyone know if the ex-miners-turned-SWP-organisers like Ian Mitchell and Joe Henry are still around? And which side they are taking?

 

[The39thStep]

You've said, simply and clearly, what I've been attempting, in a totally incoherent and inadequate way, to say for the past hour

class of 77

 

[The39thStep]

check out the videos from the amm fringe meeting at marxism. you'll love it.

where are these gems then?

 

[Fedayn]

Frank was wrong about Andy, though. Anyone know if the ex-miners-turned-SWP-organisers like Ian Mitchell and Joe Henry are still around? And which side they are taking?

Ian Mitchell from Sheffield? He was up here in Scotland for a good few years as a FTer, was one of the more likable of them imho. Not seen him for a few years mind.
A mate mentioned he was still writing for the SW and ISJ occasionally but not as active as was. Apparently moved to Bute.

 

[tedsplitter]

Joe Henry left the SWP with the Counterfire lot, sadly. Don't know if he's still with them.

 

[Oisin123]

where are these gems then?

http://vimeo.com/m/70556485

And five others around there somewhere.

 

[imposs1904]

yes and no. depressing yet comforting at the same time. i only do it because that's what i do. my entire politics is anecdotes. . . .

You think that's shit? My entire politics is other people's anecdotes.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Martin Smith has resigned by all accounts.

 

[JHE]

Took his time, didn't he? I thought these Bolshevik types were supposed to be all dynamic, not a bunch of ditherers.

 

[imposs1904]

Martin Smith has resigned by all accounts.

jumped or pushed?

 

[emanymton]

Martin Smith has resigned by all accounts.

Too late to help the SWP.

 

[emanymton]

Very cynical thought but I guess this means that second complaint will never get investigated.

 

[barney_pig]

Martin Smith has resigned by all accounts.

From the party, or his sinecure?

 

[emanymton]

From the party, or his sinecure?

From the party, what his position in UAF and LMHR is remains another question.

My first post was wrong I was just thinking backwards this will not help to heal an of the damage already done, but it will stop the shitstorm that a second investigation would have brought about.

 

[discokermit]

From the party, what his position in UAF and LMHR is remains another question.

My first post was wrong I was just thinking backwards this will not help to heal an of the damage already done, but it will stop the shitstorm that a second investigation would have brought about.

soviet goon boy reckons the investigation will go ahead, http://sovietgoonboy.wordpress.com/

 

[comrade spurski]

If he has done no wrong as the cc and their supporters have claimed then why has he resigned?
If he has resigned in recognition that he has done wrong then why has it taken so long and why did the swp not realise he did wrong and expell him?
Or is he going to be portrayed as heroically falling on his sword for the greater good?
Or is it going to be a case of them claiming he was victimised into this?

If people stay in the swp as a result of this then they are plainly fucking idiots or sell outs or unprincipled fuckers...