SWP expulsions and squabbles

[eoin_k]

something I aspire to is the language skills of BA, DC, disco or yourself. God, how much I wish. Everything I ever write ties me up in misplaced words and unintended consequences. I wasn't for a moment suggesting you'd advocated collective class battles at every opportunity, just keeping the theme of this bit of the thread going, the theme that all socialists should be "Promoting strikes wherever possible".

fwiw I agree with what you've said, of course there are times when collective battles are necessary.

the trouble is the vast bulk of people who care about class are Marxists of one sort or other, and as Marx predates minor little factors like the working class owning (but absolutely not controlling) the bulk of the economy (via assets, homes, savings, pensions and so on) as well as owning most of the debt, and also dates from a time when class/geography were near certain determinants of future life, all they do is tie themselves in knots of long words few people other than butchers actually understand. Well, I don't, anyway.

If you find something both readable and sensible please let me know.

In one post, people who take class analysis seriously have language skills that you aspire to, in another all they do is tie themselves up in long words.

 

[treelover]

I for one have enjoyed Newbie's considered if infrequent interjections on the site.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

well my perch actually involves going round and asking people what they want whether they be residents in social housing or users of services and trying to enable them to change thei rlives for the better whether it be individually or community based. I am also active locally in some community projects.

Most people happiness and contentment, good relationships both individually and in their community,family in good health and if they have kids see them grow ok.. A decent place to live in, meaningful work and enough cash to by some shiny things go on holiday. And when things go wrong the ability to be resilient to draw upon those relationships.

I can't recall advocating collective class battles at every opportunity but I do believe that at times people's own individual problems/aspirations are more likely to be resolved/ less damage done/achieved by collective action than individual solutions.But in a period where neoliberalism has dominated collective experience of sticking together is thinner and thinner. We all hope to win the lottery.

This notion of resilience is really important. The confidence in having the ability to cope when stuff goes wrong can take much of the fear out of everyday life; fear that waits with illness, loss of income, loss of home.

I would argue that the post war settlement tried to tackle those fears head on through the NHS, unemployment benefits and income supports, massive council house builds, secure tenancies and fair rents; the upshot of this plus changes in education, pensions and behind it all the need for reconstruction, helped produce a confident self assertive working class.

It was by no means perfect - neither the settlement nor the class (for example criticisms of the gendered character of both are well documented) - and it cannot be replicated. But it is a history which has much to value and be proud of, not least in the context of this discussion the social and individual feelings of resilience that were engendered. My paternal grandmother did not have to worry about finding six pence to take to the doctors. My maternal grandmother did not have to fear the imposition of the workhouse on her or her family. My father got an education and a job for life which used that education. I could go on but I hope the point is made.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[newbie]

not to me, not smug, just honest. Mortgage and mobility don't come without aspiration though (except for the silverspooners, which is not really what I think we're on about), they have to be saved for, which means putting the career path into place. There are plenty of (often not always very admirable imo) people who've flatly refused to do any of that but most don't and many sneer lifestyler at those that do. So although I think you (& 39steps) are right that relationships and personal values are most important, to achieve them we mostly do the aspiration/individual achievement dance. We do not, to stick with the theme, achieve by collective struggle, not any more. maybe sometime in the future, but not now.

As for toys, has your view changed over time, both with your own age and as the vast flood from China has come onstream? I know mine has, partly because to some extent I've got all the things I want and partly for the 'good sense of myself' reason you cite. Dunno, I don't get the same impression from those younger and I don't think I used to feel the way I do now.





just one thing though, from an enthusiastic camper: gas powered fridge!!

 

[newbie]

I for one have enjoyed Newbie's considered if infrequent interjections on the site.

it won't last, at least I hope not. I've never had a job where I can post from work, and I don't have any work atm.

ps thankyou

 

[newbie]

In one post, people who take class analysis seriously have language skills that you aspire to, in another all they do is tie themselves up in long words.

what can I say

 

[newbie]

.

 

[eoin_k]

I for one have enjoyed Newbie's considered if infrequent interjections on the site.

People seem to be engaging with him rather than flaming him. All I was trying to point out is that he can't have it both ways. He can't dismiss everyone who takes class seriously as a bunch of 'Marxists' who just 'tie themselves in knots of long words' if he admires the language skills of the ones who actually engage with him. Plenty of writing on class is dense in a way that isn't helpful. Marx was guilty of this. I was looking at Capital the other day and there was a passage where he had written 'political animal' in greek, which makes you question his intended reader. But sometimes the material is tough because the ideas are complex, or translation is an imperfect art, or because people cautiously use veiled language to express dangerous ideas and then it becomes a convention.

 

[newbie]

In one post, people who take class analysis seriously have language skills that you aspire to, in another all they do is tie themselves up in long words.

actually to be fair, none of those I mentioned are particularly guilty of longwordism. Models of clarity, even if I don't always agree with them...well, butchers is a wee bit cryptic at times, but he posts so much the meaning is generally pretty clear.

I took it you were asking about books or considered articles rather than posts on here anyway.

 

[butchersapron]

Political animal - politikon zoon - an Aristotle thing that just means that people construct the world we live in. That was a translators choice. But it's a pretty famous phrase.

 

[eoin_k]

I had considered writing Πολιτικον ζοων in my original post and name checking Aristotle, but I wasn't sure what it would add. I was just trying to acknowledge that people who write about class don't always do a great job of making their language as accessible as possible to a wide audience. The complexity of the ideas aren't the only barrier.

 

[butchersapron]

I agree. It's got worse as there is now a market for self-sustaining bamboozling whereas marx was just being a clever cunt. But that choice was still the translators and publishers/marx does no wrong.

 

[eoin_k]

Which is links back to my question about more contemporary work on class composition in Britain (or internationally). Otherwise these ideas are in danger of becoming part of a nostalgia industry. Come on Butchers, you know you want to provide us with another reading list:

 

[butchersapron]

It's an excellent question - and there's two aspects: the formal factual sociological stuff and then what this means to the class politically. (There's three actually, about how the technical composition of work structures the other two things). Give me some time and i'll come back (today i have cricket and opera though).

 

[eoin_k]

You're not allowed to like my post newbie, unless you promise to do your homework.

ETA: Joke

2ETA: Or challenge, if you prefer.

 

[newbie]

You're not allowed to like my post newbie, unless you promise to do your homework.

ETA: Joke

2ETA: Or challenge, if you prefer.

oh, I'd giggle without the disclaimers.



if I knew of anyone who I felt dealt with what I observe (and I'm very aware how narrow that is, but still) in a way that adds anything I'd say so. But I don't, and I've been looking for a long time.

for a while elements of nu labour attempted to talk about the acquisition and distribution of assets and even introduced, as a tiny intervention, Child Trust Funds. Neither the idea nor the thinking behind it really took hold, most on the left were utterly dismissive, and CTFs were subsequently abolished. I've no particular interest in discussing that specific issue, wrong thread anyway, I'm only raising it because it's one of the few bits of evidence I've seen of even vaguely left thinking about issues that, to me, put oceans of clear blue water between modern society and what's gone before.

I'll be interested to see what butchers comes up with, but if it doesn't deal with post 'tell sid' society or doesn't consider why the working class so readily handed their prime collective treasure, the mutuals, to 'the market', and what that has subsequently meant, then it's not really going to satisfy.

 

[discokermit]

Frank was a good guy. Shame there's not a lot more like him

there are critiques to be made of some of his behaviour and choices over the years but yes, overall. and a fierce fighter. and one of the most intelligent people i've ever met.
frank used to stay at jim nichols' house everytime he was in london, i had fixed myself to frank like a wart the first branch meeting i went to, his little apprentice and chauffeur, so i got to stay there as well. it was interesting to watch that lot in his presence, foot, nichol, holborow all adored him.

there were some contradictions though and i think this is an apt place to mention them. he was involved in the birmingham engineers thing in the seventies, then was the control commision chair that expelled his former opposition comrades. he was the only person who ever suggested to andy wilson setting up a secret faction, then was chair of his expulsion committee. he played a leading role in our branch (excluding maybe half a dozen members out of thirtyish who we knew didn't agree) sending in a piece for the pre conference bulletin, yet became mute as the fulltimer and the fanatics wrecked the branch.

hallas was the same.

they had their reasons, which i think were genuinely held and honourable, but i think they were wrong. maybe wrong isn't correct, they were both veterans of various faction fights and always came out on the winning side and with some influence, so maybe they knew what they were doing but to me, something doesn't sit right.

what do i know though. i'm a rubbish revolutionary.

 

[discokermit]

i must add, and it's a bit weird to say this, but if there were still a control commission, and frank chaired the meetings about delta, i'm pretty sure he would have expelled him. whether frank thought he was a rapist or not would be irrelevant. he would have forseen the damage to the party it could inflict and kicked him out.

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Newbie's posts have got me wondering if people can recommend any good reading material on class composition in Britain today.

You could skim the political reading thread, damn long but one or two books may jump to your eye and as they are recommended by members they may be a damn site more accessable than any I have read as my bent is political history.
Happy reading

 

[andysays]

the trouble is the vast bulk of people who care about class are Marxists of one sort or other...

Surprised no one else appears to have pointed this out, but there are large numbers of people who care very much about class. and making sure that power and wealth stay in the exclusive hands of their class, who are most definitely not Marxists.

Perhaps what you mean is people who talk about class

 

[discokermit]

it's great isn't it, nostalgia.

yes and no. depressing yet comforting at the same time. i only do it because that's what i do. my entire politics is anecdotes.

different world from today though.

you don't have to tell me. we've been in almost constant retreat since before i started work. apart from a few shining pinnacles, and those mostly a long time ago, i've been beaten like a dog for the last twenty eight years. in the last three years alone i've gone from thirty grand a year to just over fifteen.

Will it ever come back?

fuck knows, probably, ebb and flow and all that. fuck knows when though.

 

[discokermit]

Perhaps what you mean is people who talk about class

even then it's a nonsense. everybody talks about class.

 

[andysays]

i must add, and it's a bit weird to say this, but if there were still a control commission, and frank chaired the meetings about delta, i'm pretty sure he would have expelled him. whether frank thought he was a rapist or not would be irrelevant. he would have forseen the damage to the party it could inflict and kicked him out.

Whatever it may have been in the past (others here are far better positioned to know and comment), it's a sign of what the SWP is currently that there was absolutely no one in any position of authority left who was clear-sighted enough to realise this.

 

[butchersapron]

That such a possible action is looked on as a better option then what happened is doubly damning.

 

[The39thStep]

even then it's a nonsense. everybody talks about class.

Absolutely . I was described by a mates sister from Wythensahw as a yuppie who is a bit like us last Friday night. This was about 45 minutes after she had drank about four pints of Stella but before she headbutted some woman from Wilmslow who had been staring at her.

 

[andysays]

That such a possible action is looked on as a better option then what happened is doubly damning.

Would you like to explain your thinking on this?

 

[butchersapron]

Would you like to explain your thinking on this?

That expelling people with no investigation because of the impact accusations might have on the party is shit and a sign of top -heavy executive/bureaucracy power. That this now appears as a better option that what happened damns both the current party and the old good swp. That was all in my post btw, you only needed to look.

 

[newbie]

Surprised no one else appears to have pointed this out, but there are large numbers of people who care very much about class. and making sure that power and wealth stay in the exclusive hands of their class, who are most definitely not Marxists.

Perhaps what you mean is people who talk about class

and picked up yet again for not quite conveying what I intended... ah well... good point, well made

 

[andysays]

That expelling people with no investigation because of the impact accusations might have on the party is shit and a sign of top -heavy executive/bureaucracy power. That this now appears as a better option that what happened damns both the current party and the old good swp.

Where is there anything in my post, or discokermit's, that says anything about "with no investigation"?

We're also not talking about "people", we're talking about one particular person at the very top of the hierarchy. It's precisely a sign of top-heavy bureaucracy power that the "investigation" process led to the completely fucked-up result it did.

I'm not arguing (and apologies if it came across this way) that someone with a bit of sense should have moved to expel Smith if he wouldn't go of his own volition simply "for the good of the party" regardless of the ultimate right or wrongness of his position, but that in this case, as in many others, doing the right thing would actually have been the right thing for the organisation as well.

That was all in my post btw, you only needed to look.

No, it wasn't, but thanks for expanding/clarifying

 

[discokermit]

That such a possible action is looked on as a better option then what happened is doubly damning.

exactly, which is why i felt weird about saying it. as shit as it is, and it is, it would still have been better than this.