SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
To be frank there it sounds like she just never worked out that sometimes you just need to turn around and say: 'fuck off, no I'm not doing it'.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
dunno. i do know one of 'em is on the platform at the isn fringe meeting though.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
excerpt from the cc report,
"Anyone who now smashes up an organisation of several thousand revolutionary socialists with precious roots in workplaces and communities is playing with fire.
Central Committee, 8 July 2013"
several thousand? lol!
"Anyone who now smashes up an organisation of several thousand revolutionary socialists with precious roots in workplaces and communities is playing with fire.
Central Committee, 8 July 2013"
several thousand? lol!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Is that a threat? Is that suggesting that not doing exactly what the SWP CC demands, or that criticising how the party of which they are members acts is going to remove the only force capable of holding back incipient fascism? That doors are going to be going in? What puffed up nonsense.
imposs1904
Thread Killa'
discokermit
Well-Known Member
whole thing,
"This is an era of a new and inspiring phase of the Egyptian revolution, and of great revolts in Brazil and Turkey. In Britain the attacks from Ed Miliband on Len McCluskey emphasise the political ferment caused by Labour’s failure to confront austerity.
But each of these battles underlines the need for an independent socialist presence, and a party that is capable of contributing to the resistance, clarifying political ideas and fighting for socialism.
Since the SWP’s special conference on 10 March the party leadership has pushed hard for an outward looking approach, engaging in the struggles to confront racism and fascism, against the bedroom tax, in defence of our NHS and much more.
We have seen successes at trade union conferences, in working alongside others in UAF against the EDL after the Woolwich murder, in broadening the benefit justice campaign and building for the People’s Assembly.
At the same time the party has initiated a series of debates in its publications and at Marxism 2013. The recent editions of the Review and International Socialism are full of controversy and argument.
We want this combination of discussion and intervention in the struggles of the working class to continue. The SWP is perfectly capable of debating and simultaneously working together.
However, such discussions have to be open to all.
Recently the central committee was made aware of a section of members who have organised secretly to work separately from the rest of the party and to intervene at Marxism 2013 as an independent group. They have organised around a website and have a national structure of meetings, internal communications, elections and a bank account to wage an internal fight.
The NC voted to call on these comrades to dismantle the website, stop acting as a faction and to engage with the rest of the party. Nobody was expelled for such activity, even though it clearly breaches our party rules and the decisions of party conferences.
Contrary to rumours that have been circulated, no member of the CC called anyone in the party a “cancer” or demanded “blood”. Again and again CC members and other leading NC members insisted that political differences need to be addressed through political argument, not through expulsions or administrative measures.
Four comrades were suspended from membership pending an investigation. These four had initiated or signed up to a bank account which, according to its organiser, “is an account specifically for a split group. It is a different account to the one set up for the faction. This one is for making a new group financially viable so that when we go we can hit the ground running with a magazine etc.”
That really is going too far. Does any party member think this is acceptable?
Nobody was sacked after the NC, although it is true that many NC members expressed dissatisfaction with paid employees of the party being part of a secret faction.
The NC also heard that the CC had acted to ensure that the Disputes Committee hold a swift and fair hearing of a current case, if necessary co-opting people to form an acceptable panel. There will be no CC representation on the panel that hears the case.
We want a proper approach to any such complaints, and an elected review body will soon report on suggested improvements to the process. These will be discussed throughout the party.
We look forward to continuing the crucial political debates that are important for SWP members and everyone on the left – about the shape of the working class today, the role of the Labour Party and the trade union leadership, about how socialists should organise, about how to fight women’s oppression and racism and many other issues.
But we also need a strong socialist spine to all the fightbacks. We want everyone to cease secret organising and engage with the democratic debate that is taking place inside the SWP.
The left is not so strong and so confident in Britain that it can blithely encourage splits and fissures. It’s a time for greater unity, not less. Anyone who now smashes up an organisation of several thousand revolutionary socialists with precious roots in workplaces and communities is playing with fire.
Central Committee, 8 July 2013"
"This is an era of a new and inspiring phase of the Egyptian revolution, and of great revolts in Brazil and Turkey. In Britain the attacks from Ed Miliband on Len McCluskey emphasise the political ferment caused by Labour’s failure to confront austerity.
But each of these battles underlines the need for an independent socialist presence, and a party that is capable of contributing to the resistance, clarifying political ideas and fighting for socialism.
Since the SWP’s special conference on 10 March the party leadership has pushed hard for an outward looking approach, engaging in the struggles to confront racism and fascism, against the bedroom tax, in defence of our NHS and much more.
We have seen successes at trade union conferences, in working alongside others in UAF against the EDL after the Woolwich murder, in broadening the benefit justice campaign and building for the People’s Assembly.
At the same time the party has initiated a series of debates in its publications and at Marxism 2013. The recent editions of the Review and International Socialism are full of controversy and argument.
We want this combination of discussion and intervention in the struggles of the working class to continue. The SWP is perfectly capable of debating and simultaneously working together.
However, such discussions have to be open to all.
Recently the central committee was made aware of a section of members who have organised secretly to work separately from the rest of the party and to intervene at Marxism 2013 as an independent group. They have organised around a website and have a national structure of meetings, internal communications, elections and a bank account to wage an internal fight.
The NC voted to call on these comrades to dismantle the website, stop acting as a faction and to engage with the rest of the party. Nobody was expelled for such activity, even though it clearly breaches our party rules and the decisions of party conferences.
Contrary to rumours that have been circulated, no member of the CC called anyone in the party a “cancer” or demanded “blood”. Again and again CC members and other leading NC members insisted that political differences need to be addressed through political argument, not through expulsions or administrative measures.
Four comrades were suspended from membership pending an investigation. These four had initiated or signed up to a bank account which, according to its organiser, “is an account specifically for a split group. It is a different account to the one set up for the faction. This one is for making a new group financially viable so that when we go we can hit the ground running with a magazine etc.”
That really is going too far. Does any party member think this is acceptable?
Nobody was sacked after the NC, although it is true that many NC members expressed dissatisfaction with paid employees of the party being part of a secret faction.
The NC also heard that the CC had acted to ensure that the Disputes Committee hold a swift and fair hearing of a current case, if necessary co-opting people to form an acceptable panel. There will be no CC representation on the panel that hears the case.
We want a proper approach to any such complaints, and an elected review body will soon report on suggested improvements to the process. These will be discussed throughout the party.
We look forward to continuing the crucial political debates that are important for SWP members and everyone on the left – about the shape of the working class today, the role of the Labour Party and the trade union leadership, about how socialists should organise, about how to fight women’s oppression and racism and many other issues.
But we also need a strong socialist spine to all the fightbacks. We want everyone to cease secret organising and engage with the democratic debate that is taking place inside the SWP.
The left is not so strong and so confident in Britain that it can blithely encourage splits and fissures. It’s a time for greater unity, not less. Anyone who now smashes up an organisation of several thousand revolutionary socialists with precious roots in workplaces and communities is playing with fire.
Central Committee, 8 July 2013"
discokermit
Well-Known Member
when you're a lord and a professor at a posh uni, your whole life is puffed up nonsense.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And as the countries leading Marxist theorist he should understand exactly why this is the case.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
maybe he does. more important though is how many of the members do.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Good grief!
I had begun to think that the cc were trying to let the dust settle a bit, let hyper activism and 'party building' business as usual bring the soft periphery which had been frit by all the shouting drift back into orbit, but it appears that they couldn't allow even the whisper of internal dissent be expressed at Marxism.
Perhaps they have recognised that the fissures uncovered at the conference and special conference have in no way been addressed, and control could not be imposed without a thorough bloodletting. Whether a swp still exists when they've finished is another matter
I had begun to think that the cc were trying to let the dust settle a bit, let hyper activism and 'party building' business as usual bring the soft periphery which had been frit by all the shouting drift back into orbit, but it appears that they couldn't allow even the whisper of internal dissent be expressed at Marxism.
Perhaps they have recognised that the fissures uncovered at the conference and special conference have in no way been addressed, and control could not be imposed without a thorough bloodletting. Whether a swp still exists when they've finished is another matter
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'd respect him a bit more if he did a column explaining 'why i am so puffed up'.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
at first i thought the timing of this was a good move, as a short term tactic i think it could be. nc meeting with four days notice, a few neckshots a week before marxism. i think this latest thing can only be understood in relation to marxism.
now i'm thinking that strategically it may well be a blunder. this could blow up in their face quite badly.
now i'm thinking that strategically it may well be a blunder. this could blow up in their face quite badly.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
andy wilson, with thanks to comrade tulayev,
"How many years, old man! Lewisham, Genoa, years ago, that little room where we argued so fiercely all one evening; the congresses, that flawed, so flawed Respect campaign, the hotels in little towns. Their common memories came back in such a crowd that not one became dominant; all were present, but silently and unobtrusively, recreating a friendship which had never known words."
The Chief sighed. Kondratiev, at the other end of the receiver, could hear the deep fatigue in his voice…
“Well, Vania, what’s the situation now, down there? Speak plainly, you know me.”
“The situation”, Kondratiev began, “The situation…”
The Chief seemed not to have heard this beginning. “You know, veterans like you, members of the old Party, must tell me the truth … the whole truth. Otherwise who will I get it from. I need it. Everything is lies and lies and lies! From top to bottom, they all lie. It’s diabolical … nauseating … I live on the summit of an edifice of lies, do you know that? Party Notes lies of course. it is the sum total of the stupidities of the full-timers at the base, the intrigues at the Centre, the imaginings, the servility … I feel like asking people why, even if they say nothing, their eyes lie. Do you know what I mean?”
Was he finding excuses for himself? He let his voice trail off
Kondratiev was pulled into speaking by the unwanted silence. Should he risk it? He raised an unemphatic, “Isn’t it little your own fault?”
“I’d like to see you in my place – yes that’s something I’d like to see. The Party is a swamp – the farther you go, the more the ground gives, you sink in just when you least expect to … “
“Like the end of the 70s?”
“Yes … On the surface … But without the Party, without Cliff.”
The Chief paused and Kondratiev thought he could hear the sound of the receiver being placed – on a table? – glasses being lifted from a face, hands rubbing a tired brow.
“I need you to vote the right way on Sunday.”
Kondratiev did not answer. He thought, “That is cruel.”
“We are worth that”, the Chief resumed.
Kondratiev hesitated before answering, for he had thought a great deal on the subject.
“I think”, said Kondratiev, “that you personally have been wrong to associate yourself so personally, twice, with the hearing of a complaint. You must have a sense, don’t you, of the harm the last year has done us? Why can’t we do things better this time?”
“But our plans for Sunday are so carefully crafted”, the Chief countered, “There will be no expulsions this time.”
“Suspensions and a dismissal, do you think the opposition will fall for that?”
The Chief sighed and said nothing.
“I have been so moderate. In December, I attended meeting offering to sponsor the Opposition. I have spoken to Comrade G- offering the Opposition a compromise.”
“And yet with every intervention, you make things worse. It was you who told the first conference ‘This is War’”.
“No I did not.”
“It was you who asked the second conference to treat the opposition with ‘the contempt they deserve’.”
“But I have only been holding back the tide.”
“With every step you take, the thugs and the bullies tighten their control over the organisation.”
The strain the Chief’s voice was audible, “There are three factions in the party, and mine is the Centre, the only moderates.”
“If you offered them peace, do you think anyone in the Opposition would believe a word you say?”
Konradtiev flinched as words exploded from the Chief: “Everyone lies and lies and lies!”
“There is so much servility everywhere, a lack of oxygen”, the Chief continued, “How are we supposed to build the party without oxygen?”
“I could always accuse them of wanting to join Counterfire…”
Here they began, within them and between them, a secret dialogue, which they both followed by divination, distinctly. “Why don’t you leave?”, Kondratiev suggested. “A two, three year sabbatical? It would do you so much good.”
“I never wanted this role”, the Chief countered. “But I am the only one left of the Old Guard. I’m still needed. “
They spoke none of these words; they heard them, uttered them, only in a double tete-a-tete.
“I pity you, you are the most captive of us all.”
“I don’t want to be pitied. I forbid you to pity me. I have chosen my path and I will live by it.”
"How many years, old man! Lewisham, Genoa, years ago, that little room where we argued so fiercely all one evening; the congresses, that flawed, so flawed Respect campaign, the hotels in little towns. Their common memories came back in such a crowd that not one became dominant; all were present, but silently and unobtrusively, recreating a friendship which had never known words."
The Chief sighed. Kondratiev, at the other end of the receiver, could hear the deep fatigue in his voice…
“Well, Vania, what’s the situation now, down there? Speak plainly, you know me.”
“The situation”, Kondratiev began, “The situation…”
The Chief seemed not to have heard this beginning. “You know, veterans like you, members of the old Party, must tell me the truth … the whole truth. Otherwise who will I get it from. I need it. Everything is lies and lies and lies! From top to bottom, they all lie. It’s diabolical … nauseating … I live on the summit of an edifice of lies, do you know that? Party Notes lies of course. it is the sum total of the stupidities of the full-timers at the base, the intrigues at the Centre, the imaginings, the servility … I feel like asking people why, even if they say nothing, their eyes lie. Do you know what I mean?”
Was he finding excuses for himself? He let his voice trail off
Kondratiev was pulled into speaking by the unwanted silence. Should he risk it? He raised an unemphatic, “Isn’t it little your own fault?”
“I’d like to see you in my place – yes that’s something I’d like to see. The Party is a swamp – the farther you go, the more the ground gives, you sink in just when you least expect to … “
“Like the end of the 70s?”
“Yes … On the surface … But without the Party, without Cliff.”
The Chief paused and Kondratiev thought he could hear the sound of the receiver being placed – on a table? – glasses being lifted from a face, hands rubbing a tired brow.
“I need you to vote the right way on Sunday.”
Kondratiev did not answer. He thought, “That is cruel.”
“We are worth that”, the Chief resumed.
Kondratiev hesitated before answering, for he had thought a great deal on the subject.
“I think”, said Kondratiev, “that you personally have been wrong to associate yourself so personally, twice, with the hearing of a complaint. You must have a sense, don’t you, of the harm the last year has done us? Why can’t we do things better this time?”
“But our plans for Sunday are so carefully crafted”, the Chief countered, “There will be no expulsions this time.”
“Suspensions and a dismissal, do you think the opposition will fall for that?”
The Chief sighed and said nothing.
“I have been so moderate. In December, I attended meeting offering to sponsor the Opposition. I have spoken to Comrade G- offering the Opposition a compromise.”
“And yet with every intervention, you make things worse. It was you who told the first conference ‘This is War’”.
“No I did not.”
“It was you who asked the second conference to treat the opposition with ‘the contempt they deserve’.”
“But I have only been holding back the tide.”
“With every step you take, the thugs and the bullies tighten their control over the organisation.”
The strain the Chief’s voice was audible, “There are three factions in the party, and mine is the Centre, the only moderates.”
“If you offered them peace, do you think anyone in the Opposition would believe a word you say?”
Konradtiev flinched as words exploded from the Chief: “Everyone lies and lies and lies!”
“There is so much servility everywhere, a lack of oxygen”, the Chief continued, “How are we supposed to build the party without oxygen?”
“I could always accuse them of wanting to join Counterfire…”
Here they began, within them and between them, a secret dialogue, which they both followed by divination, distinctly. “Why don’t you leave?”, Kondratiev suggested. “A two, three year sabbatical? It would do you so much good.”
“I never wanted this role”, the Chief countered. “But I am the only one left of the Old Guard. I’m still needed. “
They spoke none of these words; they heard them, uttered them, only in a double tete-a-tete.
“I pity you, you are the most captive of us all.”
“I don’t want to be pitied. I forbid you to pity me. I have chosen my path and I will live by it.”
oskarsdrum
Active Member
seems like a total disaster move really. As the expulsions go on the expellees become more loyal and long-standing, so the opposition encompasses more and more loyalists...pity those finally speaking out didn't pluck up the courage rather earlier, of course!
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
Well it looks as if the final face-off between what was the "soft" opposition and the CC is now in progress. I'd assumed it would take a bit longer for this to happen: The Counterfire/ISG splits took more than a year and a half to work themselves out.
Up to 200 signatories already, including all of the remaining oppositional "names", Stack, Birchall, Dee, Bergfeld, Davidson, Gonzalez etc. After all this time and all this paralysis, it looks like they will end up losing more than the original 600 factionalists, They are in serious trouble.
Where do the "soft" oppositionists go now? A reunification with the ISN? Or will they want to keep things more "orthodox"?
Up to 200 signatories already, including all of the remaining oppositional "names", Stack, Birchall, Dee, Bergfeld, Davidson, Gonzalez etc. After all this time and all this paralysis, it looks like they will end up losing more than the original 600 factionalists, They are in serious trouble.
Where do the "soft" oppositionists go now? A reunification with the ISN? Or will they want to keep things more "orthodox"?
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
I had thought Marxism might be difficult for the cc, but now it looks like a full on car crash, will smith be patrolling the quad at the head of callinicos' lynch mobs?
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
How is this stuff playing in Ireland?
Is Richard Boyd Barrett well liked and respected?
Does his going to Marxism change views about him?
JHE
.
...or in hiding from the lynch mobs that are out to get him?
One of the strange things about this whole sorry tale is that the SWP bosses didn't throw him out many months ago. That's what leaders of the main parties would do in similar circumstances, I think. They'd tell him to go and he'd agree for the good of the party, while continuing to protest his innocence. Toy Town Bolsheviks are not usually any more loyal to their comrades than other politicians. Perhaps they are just more contemptuous of the members.
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Dementorstrotskyite death-eaters.
"Rodney regretted asking whether bookmarks had any China Mieville books in stock"
According to Pat Stack the membership was 1,500 earlier in the year. I think that was before all this trouble.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
The 'playing with fire' remark is particularly unfortunate by the CC because the last time it was used in a public statement was in the SWP's calamitous (for them) intervention into the first Lindsey dispute.
Our old friend Comrade Delta produced a very badly researched pamphlet that accused the strike committee of lying because... ACAS had published different figures on rates of pay!
that would be the dispute in which SEYMOUR! changed his line overnight after getting the new one from the top..
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
It certainly was. I challenged him on the Tomb and one of his fan boys offered to scratch any internal itches I might have with a broom handle and some lube. It was a real high level discussion as you can imagine.
Hillariously, that same fan boy was one of the loudest wailers over CC loyalist bullying during the Delta imbroglio.
What go around come around kid.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Self declared "country's leading Marxist theorist", surely?
That statement is so fucking deluded that it could be dubbed straight over the film of Hitler in the bunker (can't remember the name of the film...) with absolutely no alteration.
Utterly. Lost. The. Plot!
At least two have withdrawn from Marxism. Bergfeld and Jamie Woodcock. A few others considering whether to. Dan Swain might have. Ian Birchall rumoured to be about to. I wonder if they might just not bother turning up.
The cc are correct though - there was a plan for the oppositionists to leave en masse together. But they're not going to make it better like this.
The four names are available on twitter and Facebook very easily.
edit: Birchall confirmed on twitter he's not speaking. Swain also.
The cc are correct though - there was a plan for the oppositionists to leave en masse together. But they're not going to make it better like this.
The four names are available on twitter and Facebook very easily.
edit: Birchall confirmed on twitter he's not speaking. Swain also.
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