SWP expulsions and squabbles

[TremulousTetra]

although would anyone really listen to a denunciation from rabidmp3?

angry? Think you have me mixed up with the boss.

 

[Pickman's model]

OMG!

STFU

 

[Pickman's model]

angry? Think you have me mixed up with the boss.

no, i am not confusing you with bruce springsteen.

 

[TremulousTetra]

what has that giant bandwidth crunching image got to do with it, are you saying some young women are 'predators'

what do you think the woman means by the image?

 

[Pickman's model]

what do you think the woman means by the image?

what do YOU mean by it?

 

[cesare]

what do YOU mean by it?

Yep. Her personal message is irrelevant. What's intended by using her image is what I'm curious about.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep. Her personal message is irrelevant. What's intended by using her image is what I'm curious about.

i place rmp3 in the same category of dubiousness as i do articul8 after rmp3's last few posts here.

 

[cesare]

i place rmp3 in the same category of dubiousness as i do articul8 after rmp3's last few posts here.

Eyebrow raising.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I think women have the right to be just as sexually active, predatory, liberated, whatever as men without that meaning "they are asking for it". I think that image is brilliant, because it spits in the face of bourgeois values that dictate what women should and should not be.

I have no idea of the relationship that took place between Carl Marx and his maid. I have no idea of the relationship that took place in this thread. But I'm not going to judge them relationships ONLY on the age difference. As long as they were consensual, it's not for me to judge.

 

[cesare]

She has complained of rape in a vastly unequal power relationship - let's not lose sight of that.

 

[JimW]

...As long as they were consensual, it's not for me to judge.

You judge a million and one things on second and third hand reports - pretty much all your history for starters - but here where a reasonable look at the situation and power dynamics involved leads to the conclusion something was at very least not right you just can't draw a conclusion.

 

[TremulousTetra]

She has complained of rape in a vastly unequal power relationship - let's not lose sight of that.

you don't have to talk about every issue, in every post. I was responding to one particular issue,

Of course there are circumstances which are none of our business. But it doesn't make you a bourgeois moralist to think what the hell is a 48 year old leader of a socialist organisation doing trying to go to bed with a 17 year old, and another teenager not much older. Personally I think he is a tosser doing that behind his partners back as well, which I imagine must have been fairly humiliating. All in all it doesn't exactly paint a very good picture of him. Using your position as a political leader to sleep with young women, which is effectively what has happened, even in a best case scenario, is totally out of order in my view and he should be made to step down for that alone.

there was a power relationship between married Karl Marx and his maid. Does that mean you automatically judge him?

 

[xslavearcx]

just watched a news report about the situation syrian women face in refugee camps facing it was alleged sexual exploitation by virtue of the disempowered position of them being displaced, in a camp in a war situation. Thanks to reading this thread i now realise that being concerned about such matters is merely bourgiouse morality at play....

 

[TremulousTetra]

You judge a million and one things on second and third hand reports - pretty much all your history for starters - but here where a reasonable look at the situation and power dynamics involved leads to the conclusion something was at very least not right you just can't draw a conclusion.

if you go back through the thread, you will see that October lost asked me why are brought in the issue of Karl Marx. I am making a specific point, about a specific issue, of age different relationships. That's it.

 

[TremulousTetra]

just watched a news report about the situation syrian women face in refugee camps facing it was alleged sexual exploitation by virtue of the disempowered position of them being displaced, in a camp in a war situation. Thanks to reading this thread i now realise that being concerned about such matters is merely bourgiouse morality at play....

so the SWP is now a refugee camp? Fuck it.

 

[xslavearcx]

you don't have to talk about every issue, in every post. I was responding to one particular issue,
there was a power relationship between married Karl Marx and his maid. Does that mean you automatically judge him?

ehm yes. just because the guy wrote some pretty awesome critiques of capitalism doesnt mean that he wasnt abusing a position of power there. If a maths teacher teachers a pupil about pythagorus theorom well, the subject matter is in no way affected if they use the teacher/pupil relationship in a dodgy fashion following the exemplary lesson...

 

[cesare]

Bringing up Marx doesn't cut it with me, frankly. (@rmp3)

 

[xslavearcx]

so the SWP is now a refugee camp? Fuck it.

nope just taking the piss out of the inference that what went on in the SWP can be constructed as an outcome of a liberatory discourse on sexuality rather than the predatory fucked up ness that it most likely was rape not withstanding....

 

[TremulousTetra]

Bringing up Marx doesn't cut it with me, frankly. (@rmp3)

it's not particularly that it is Marx, it's just a well-known example. You could've took my early example of the young gay man claiming to be a predator of older men. My single point is about, the age difference and doing it behind a wife's back, which October lost judged as enough to make him stand down. But hey Ho.

 

[TremulousTetra]

nope just taking the piss out of the inference that what went on in the SWP can be constructed as an outcome of a liberatory discourse on sexuality rather than the predatory fucked up ness that it most likely was rape not withstanding....

your inference, not mine.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

For fuck's sake, you lot made me curious enough to take him off ignore there. For a minute. Please don't do that again.

 

[cesare]

it's not particularly that it is Marx, it's just a well-known example. You could've took my early example of the young gay man claiming to be a predator of older men. My single point is about, the age difference and doing it behind a wife's back, which October lost judged as enough to make him stand down. But hey Ho.

I'm going to apologise in advance if I'm being a bit terse here. I'm coming down with a streaming cold which might account for my sense of humour failure yesterday. But I'm getting increasingly fucking annoyed by these distractions from the main point under discussion - which is the complaint of rape from a woman in an unequal power relationship & how that complaint (amongst similar complaints) has been fucking appalling dealt with by the SWP.

 

[xslavearcx]

apologies for my shit reading then of
general defense of swp in all this matter +
post of remember that youngsters can be the predators of oldies (negating the problem of the power relationship of age and position that has been put forward about that situation) +
liberatory pic of young woman @ slutwalk
= "inference that what went on in the SWP can be constructed as an outcome of a liberatory discourse on sexuality"

 

[TremulousTetra]

I'm going to apologise in advance if I'm being a bit terse here. I'm coming down with a streaming cold which might account for my sense of humour failure yesterday. But I'm getting increasingly fucking annoyed by these distractions from the main point under discussion - which is the complaint of rape from a woman in an unequal power relationship & how that complaint (amongst similar complaints) has been fucking appalling dealt with by the SWP.

as you were.

 

[cesare]

apologies for my shit reading then of
general defense of swp in all this matter +
post of remember that youngsters can be the predators of oldies (negating the problem of the power relationship of age and position that has been put forward about that situation) +
liberatory pic of young woman @ slutwalk
= "inference that what went on in the SWP can be constructed as an outcome of a liberatory discourse on sexuality"

Well, exactly. Your interpretation is how I'm perceiving this too.

This isn't about hippy type free love discourse, it's about a fucking rape complaint.

 

[TremulousTetra]

apologies for my shit reading then of
general defense of swp in all this matter +
post of remember that youngsters can be the predators of oldies (negating the problem of the power relationship of age and position that has been put forward about that situation) +
liberatory pic of young woman @ slutwalk
= "inference that what went on in the SWP can be constructed as an outcome of a liberatory discourse on sexuality"

I think I've defended the ideas of the SWP, Trotskyism, Leninism, which is not the same thing as defending the organisation.
I made a response to a specific point made about age difference. I suppose, if I had posted cartoons of dead Lenin I would have been more on topic. Hypocrisy.
If you look at the title, the topic of the thread is SWP squabbles and falling out.

There's been some discussion of the latest SWP rows and expulsions over on the Callinicos / Penny thread, but, it tended to get buried under mountains of hate directed at the "left" commentariat. So here's a thread to discuss expulsions and squabbles in one of Britain's main left wing groups.

The Weekly Worker (as always, caution advised) has an account of four people getting the boot in the run up to SWP conference. There's an amusingly Kafkaesque edge to it too. They were expelled for factionalism, seemingly as a result of facebook messages. But this happened during the "pre-conference period", where for a few months a year, SWP members are supposed by allowed to form factions. The problem is though that to gain factional rights, you need 30 signatories... but to gather those 30 signatories you have to engage in what the Central Committee considers "factionalism". Which is an expellable offence.

So two of the people who wrote critical articles in the pre-conference bulletins and a couple of others were unceremoniously ejected.

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/943/swp-expelled-before-conference-begins

Your inference, not mine.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Well, exactly. Your interpretation is how I'm perceiving this too.

This isn't about hippy type free love discourse, it's about a fucking rape complaint.

is it? I thought it was about the death of Leninism? How this was a natural conclusion, of the Stalinist structures in the SWP.

I have actually chose not to defend the SWP on this issue. That they have done something wrong, doesn't make misrepresenting them, and their politics, right.

 

[xslavearcx]

fair enough rmp3 - it does come accross that way...

 

[cesare]

is it? I thought it was about the death of Leninism? How this was a natural conclusion, of the Stalinist structures in the SWP.

I have actually chose not to defend the SWP on this issue. That they have done something wrong, doesn't make misrepresenting them, and their politics, right.

No, it's not about the death of Leninism. It's about "SWP expulsions and squabbles" most recently about the latest expulsions/squabbles which are rooted in these sexual abuse allegations.

Leninism is probably at the same stage as Lenin himself. Embalmed and slowly decaying.

 

[TremulousTetra]

fair enough rmp3 - it does come accross that way...

no worries. It's no consequence.