SWP expulsions and squabbles

[TremulousTetra]

No, it's not about the death of Leninism. It's about "SWP expulsions and squabbles" most recently about the latest expulsions/squabbles which are rooted in these sexual abuse allegations.

is it not!

Leninism is probably at the same stage as Lenin himself. Embalmed and slowly decaying.

thank God for that! Back on topic.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Go on, fill your boots. Enjoy the demise. But don't forget the important job, do something that can truly wash away the muck of ages.

 

[Red Cat]

I made a response to a specific point made about age difference.

That didn't seem to even consider the emotional aspects of that difference in power and experience, and the potential for that to be exploitative and abusive when taking place within a hierarchical organisation, the maintenance of which relies in part on the charisma of the leadership.

 

[TremulousTetra]

That didn't seem to even consider the emotional aspects of that difference in power and experience, and the potential for that to be exploitative and abusive when taking place within a hierarchical organisation, the maintenance of which relies in part on the charisma of the leadership.

you're right it didn't.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I'm going to apologise in advance if I'm being a bit terse here. I'm coming down with a streaming cold which might account for my sense of humour failure yesterday. But I'm getting increasingly fucking annoyed by these distractions from the main point under discussion - which is the complaint of rape from a woman in an unequal power relationship & how that complaint (amongst similar complaints) has been fucking appalling dealt with by the SWP.

no need to apologise, as long as you are equally terse with other people who wander off what you claim is the 'main' topic. Seems like you will have an awful lot of being terse, to do. Every topic under the sun has been raised so far.

It really does underline that for all the talk about an "IS Tradition" from both camps the reality is that there is no such thing as an IS Tradition. For sure, there is acres of print down through the decades purporting to be IS theory but when you look at the various twists and turns the British SWP have taken during the same time you'd be hard pressed to find any sort of continuity.

So the IS Tradition is neutral in a conflict between "state capitalist" North Korea and American Imperialism, then it is pro "state capitalist" North Vietnam a decade later. Then in the '80's it backs reactionary Islamic jihadists against the "state capitalist" USSR.

During the early stages of the Socialist Alliance the SWP is "uncompromising" on the issue of open borders and migrant rights, then when it is in a position to actually put such a position on a national platform in Respect it suddenly has nothing to say on the matter.

It is a "at the heart" of the LGBT struggle one minute but then such things become 'shibboleths' in other circumstances

It refers to the IRA as the "cutting edge" of the struggle against imperialism in the 70's and 80's but by the late 90's it has a position largely indistinguishable from the "Queens Own Socialist Party"

Now, I make no comment about the rights and wrongs of those positions in themselves, that's for another thread(s). My point is that there is no way these multiple contradictory positions can be reconciled under a political and theoretical 'tradition' beyond the fact that a certain brand name called, "The IS Traditon" held them at one point or the other.

It reminds you on a much less grander scale of Lord Palmerston's comments that Britain has no permanent allies only permanent interests. The "IS Tradition" has no permanent ideas or practice only permanent interests, which is to be as visible as possible and recruit.
Groucho Marx probably sums it up better: "Those are my principles and if you don't like them.., well, I have others!"

did I miss you getting terse at this Post? Alleged Rape not even mentioned.

 

[sihhi]

Topics have been raised since the importance of retaining the IS tradition by undemocratically rigging the second conference was defended.

 

[DotCommunist]

Bringing up Marx doesn't cut it with me, frankly. (@rmp3)

c'mon, It's easter.

 

[TremulousTetra]

a hierarchical organisation, the maintenance of which relies in part on the charisma of the leadership.

you just cannot resist can you? Even when you want to pretend you're all morally outraged, rather than gleefully twisting the knife.

Whatever. So what you gonna do now?

 

[cesare]

I get a sense you're creeping feminism now, Red Cat

 

[DotCommunist]

you just cannot resist can you? Even when you want to pretend you're all morally outraged, rather than gleefully twisting the knife.

Whatever. So what you gonna do now?

Theres a rule right, its a made up rule called 'half your age plus 7' Thats the generally accepted definition of how much you can cradle snatch. 47-17 is not in that scale....is it bourgois morality to point out how skewed things would be in such a relationship?

 

[cesare]

c'mon, It's easter.

 

[cesare]

Pisses me off that the SWP think they're leading the working class. If the SWP go under because of this, the working class won't notice.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

And rmp3 manages to make the most astonishing post on the entire thread - those of you with him on ignore are really missing something special this time. Please don't reply to him though!

Oh christ not the best of moves was it. People arguing what he and I are aguing don't need hostages to fortune like that. There is someting very dubious about that particular form of protest (why are they always attractive and slim for a start!) but there's something even worse about male socialists sharing it with everyone.

 

[cesare]

Oh christ not the best of moves was it. People arguing what he and I are aguing don't need hostages to fortune like that. There is someting very dubious about that particular form of protest (why are they always attractive and slim for a start!) but there's something even worse about male socialists sharing it with everyone.

Ugh.

 

[cesare]

"Why are they* always attractive and slim for a start"

* the superfluous earlier image from rmp3

Proper skin crawling stuff.

 

[DotCommunist]

Pisses me off that the SWP think they're leading the working class. If the SWP go under because of this, the working class won't notice.

Its part of the schtick to imagine relevancy. When talking to mate on this one when I've said 'you know the SWP sort of held a rape trial?' the question hasn't been 'how the fuck did they think that was a good idea' but 'who are the SWP'

 

[cesare]

Its part of the schtick to imagine relevancy. When talking to mate on this one when I've said 'you know the SWP sort of held a rape trial?' the question hasn't been 'how the fuck did they think that was a good idea' but 'who are the SWP'

Exactly. The leather elbow patches might be weeping but no-one else gives a toss.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

not particularly, bb. in case you hadn't noticed, i can be quite rude to most people, it means nothing more than 'i think the comment i was responding to was absolutely full of shit.' If you think you've been getting more than your deserved share of such comments, well, its probably because you are virtually the only person on the whole internetz making any kind of a job of defending the CC. MOst of the actual SWP members comments generally amount to no more than 'really good article.'

But that last comment was excessively crap even for a loyalist! 'A certain brand of feminist...' well, I could just as well say 'a certain brand of trotskyist is nothing more than a rape apologist' - it doesnt exactly get us anywhere does it? Its just an excuse not to (that horrible word!) engage with what the other person is saying. It amounts to a refusal to listen, which therefore makes the response worthless, as it is not a reply. Effectively you are saying it is impossible for a member - even a very young member - to be bullied. Which is a bit crap, innit?

Cliff always used to say that the SWP was different to many of the other trot groups (he was thinking, I think of the WRP, RCP and overseas groups mainly) in that they liked to put up their flag and tell people to come rally round it, being proudest of their points of difference, whereas the SWP tried to build bridges to people, to find ways of working with them and convincing them in practice. Everything you are defending is the WRP/RCP methodology. Which failed, miserably and deservedly.

Yeah fair enough fella. You are like that when you see it that way and I was probably trying too hard. But this stream of 'someone said something so it must be true to some extent' stories is wearing me down. There's nothing can be done to defend against them cause they're so non specific.

I agree about Cliff and his ability to embrace difference. EXCEPT when he saw his side as under existential threat or even just under attack from people who know enough to know better. Which arguably applies to most of the opposition making willful and totally calculated concessions to politics they know are in competition with their own. My first ever encounter with the man was in a lift when he realised I was a member of the Irish org that was disagreeing with his and the swp cc's characterisation of the Iran-Iraq war at the time. "So comrade" he said to me as I cowered behind Bambery I think, "how do you feel about being objectively a Contra in this war? You have no understanding of the balance of forces." I didn't feel very embraced. Shell shocked actually. Though it was in no way bullying, if I was big and ugly enough to say my piece at the meeting we'd just been at, I had no reason to complain about him arguing me into a corner. Today I'm pretty sure he'd be encouraging Sheila McGregor to write the no doubt very polemical piece for the ISJ she is apparently preparing now concerning Vogel, Gimenez and the other 'Marxist Feminists' beloved of Bakan-Seymour.

 

[DotCommunist]

Even my fucking mother the Unison rep was like 'oh the SWP didn't they come to that uni protest?'

'No mum thats the SP. Rach is a member. You know her'

'Whats the difference?'

hienze 5 fucking 7

 

[Belushi]

This is why we desperately need a trot family tree

 

[cesare]

Even my fucking mother the Unison rep was like 'oh the SWP didn't they come to that uni protest?'

'No mum thats the SP. Rach is a member. You know her'

'Whats the difference?'

hienze 5 fucking 7

Unison are complete fucking cunts, as well now, tbf.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

"Why are they* always attractive and slim for a start"

* the superfluous earlier image from rmp3

Proper skin crawling stuff.

Yeah the movitation for sharing it is something I don't get. You can make a point about young people being sexually aggressive without playing to peoples prurience.

 

[Red Cat]

you just cannot resist can you? Even when you want to pretend you're all morally outraged, rather than gleefully twisting the knife.

Whatever. So what you gonna do now?

Is this a plural you in which you're sticking me into some group that I don't belong to? Because I think you must have mistaken me for someone else. I'm neither pretending or gleeful; I find the whole thing disturbing and sad.

I don't know why you're grinning in that way and assuming that the bit that you quote is necessarily a putting the knife in rather than an observation. The SWP is a hierarchical organisation that has people with powerful personalities in leadership positions. Are you disputing that?

 

[Red Cat]

I get a sense you're creeping feminism now, Red Cat

Stealth feminist.

 

[cesare]

Yeah the movitation for sharing it is something I don't get. You can make a point about young people being sexually aggressive without playing to peoples prurience.

Why make or reinforce a point about young people's sexuality in the context of a rape allegation?

 

[cesare]

Stealth feminist.

I don"t know about you, but this "creeping feminism" shit when women pull them up on how they've dealt with this, really pisses me off.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is why we desperately need a trot hanging tree

Corrected for you

 

[leyton96]

Steve Hedley has released a public statement in reply to the allegations from Caroline Leneghan
http://stevenhedley.wordpress.com/

 

[barney_pig]

Steve Hedley has released a public statement in reply to the allegations from Caroline Leneghan
http://stevenhedley.wordpress.com/

That statement is a car crash of epic proportions. When in a hole that deep buying a bigger shovel is not the solution.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I really don't know what to think about that but I do know it makes me feel very, very uncomfortable.

There's always the possibility that he's telling the truth but if he is then we've got a woman with a horrible illness having said horrible illness discussed (and it will be) online and irl. And if he isn't, well...