SWP expulsions and squabbles
- Thread starter Nigel Irritable
- Start date
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
What's been said?
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
To be honest I don't really know what to make of it either. I just thought since Caroline had had the opportunity to circulate her side of the story quite widely it would only be fair to do the same for Steve Hedley.
I'm not surprised people feel a bit uncomfortable reading it, for all sorts of reasons, so do I. I suppose it goes to show these things are never straight forward.
The fact that the RMT have said he has no case to answer is significant I think.
I'm not surprised people feel a bit uncomfortable reading it, for all sorts of reasons, so do I. I suppose it goes to show these things are never straight forward.
The fact that the RMT have said he has no case to answer is significant I think.
That'd be quite easy for the police to check, wouldn't it?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
check PMs mate
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
How would the police do that? Steve Hedley hasn't made any complaint to them. All we know is that Caroline Leneghan made a complaint to the police but they chose not to pursue the case although the reasons they chose to not to do so is disputed by the two parties.
SpineyNorman
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You'd have thought so. And the police apparently did clear him. But this isn't a police statement, it's his statement so we don't know whether the things he says have been seen by the police have been seen by the police, if you get what I mean. I'm just very reluctant to jump to any kind of conclusions on this.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
I think you are right to be cautious in your judgements, I am too. As far as the police checking things Steve Hedley does say in his statement:
[QUOTEThe police questioned me investigated the allegation thoroughly, had the case reviewed by a senior officer and took No Further Action.
Ms Leneghan also made a complaint to my employer the RMT trade union which has carried out an exhaustive investigation and found that I had “no case to answer”. During both investigations I provided hundreds of texts and emails that showed that Caroline Leneghan had been abusive to and assaulted me on several occasions.[/QUOTE]
So it seems he did provide evidence to the police for them to investigate. Although we can't know for definite if this proves Steve's case I think it's reasonable to infer that neither the police or the RMT investigative panel had a major problem with the evidence Steve Hedley says he presented showing that Caroline Leneghan engaged in abusive behaviour.
more the brown leather jacket...
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I wouldn't go quite that far, leyton96. Neither of those bodies presumably looked into that issue. They looked into the allegations against Steve Hedley, in the case of the police deciding not to prosecute and in the case of the RMT apparently coming to the conclusion that he had no case to answer. That's not quite the same as either necessarily deciding in favour of his counter-allegations. As people with no knowledge of the situation outside of the public statements of the two individuals and the decisions of the police and RMT, we should be very careful about assuming things.
A decision not to pursue allegations against one party (in this case by two investigating bodies) isn't the same as a decision that allegations against the other party are true. Those would have to be investigated separately and appropriately before anyone can assume their accuracy.
A decision not to pursue allegations against one party (in this case by two investigating bodies) isn't the same as a decision that allegations against the other party are true. Those would have to be investigated separately and appropriately before anyone can assume their accuracy.
leyton96
NGO's selling privilege checking solutions
You have misunderstood me. I made no claim as to the truth of Caroline or Steve's claims. I think that is pretty clear from what I wrote. I simply pointed out that Steve Hedley claims he has presented evidence of abuse to both the police and the RMT and as far as we know, neither body found flaws in what was presented.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
This is what I was getting at when I implied that if he's not telling the truth with some of his claims he could come badly unstuck - the people who did the RMT investigation are bound to see it.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
You shouldn't in response to a rape allegation no. That needs treating with the utmost seriousness on simple questions of fact. But when people are making wider arguments, which they have been, that all relationships between young women and older men are oppressive and predatory it is worth pointing out that not all young people are sexually passive or immature. What wasn't helpful was illustrating the point with a picture which lets people claim you're dodgy. I don't often agree with pickman but when the picture ain't really work safe you need to think twice about the impression you're creating.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
People weren't making the argument that "all relationships between young women and older men are oppressive and predatory". They were making an argument about power dynamics and the potential to abuse the power inherent in such relationships.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Many were but at times the argument did stray into the all such relationships territory. Some relationships are definitely inappropriate, that I agree with.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Note to self: never post when half awake
Not relationships between young women and older men per se but between a 17 year old and a near 50 year old.
And I think concerns have to be seen in the context of the greater knowledge we have these days about child sexual abuse and the effect that has on a young person's sexuality. Current stats are 1 in 4 people experience some kind of sexual abuse in childhood. This sometimes results in sexually promiscous and risk taking behaviour in teens.
This doesn't mean that I would always consider such an age difference to be a fucked up thing but I think we need to be aware of such contexts if we're in leadership positions of hierarchical organisations that are exciting for young people to be involved in. If I, a 42 year old, wanted to have sex with a 17 year old boy so bad that I actually considered doing something about it I'd be really worried about myself. If a 17 year old pursued me I'd be wondering what that was about too. This is about having an awareness of the emotional and unconscious aspects of sex and relationships rather than either assuming that large age difference = bad or conversely that active sexuality = good.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
...
discokermit
Well-Known Member
the sheffield resignations, http://internationalsocialismuk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/resignations-from-sheffield-swp.html
this bit shows the degeneracy and sectarianism of the cc faction,
*The final point, for those who are unaware, is in reference to the Unison women’s statement
The CC were informed about the statement published, and about several comrades being approached to sign it. In response, the CC proposed the following amendments (highlighted in bold):
“We recognise the enormous challenges faced by women victims of male violence, and the pressures which women face, including from abusive men, not to complain about violence and abuse. We therefore believe that, when women complain of male violence within our movement, our trade unions and political organisations should start from a position of believing women but without making presumptions about guilt or innocence."
"We believe that all women who complain of male violence have the right to be listened to and supported, and to have their complaints properly and sympathetically investigated through due process .”
The amendments were immediately rejected with comments attacking the Party.
The CC position then became that no comrade should sign the statement.
this bit shows the degeneracy and sectarianism of the cc faction,
*The final point, for those who are unaware, is in reference to the Unison women’s statement
The CC were informed about the statement published, and about several comrades being approached to sign it. In response, the CC proposed the following amendments (highlighted in bold):
“We recognise the enormous challenges faced by women victims of male violence, and the pressures which women face, including from abusive men, not to complain about violence and abuse. We therefore believe that, when women complain of male violence within our movement, our trade unions and political organisations should start from a position of believing women but without making presumptions about guilt or innocence."
"We believe that all women who complain of male violence have the right to be listened to and supported, and to have their complaints properly and sympathetically investigated through due process .”
The amendments were immediately rejected with comments attacking the Party.
The CC position then became that no comrade should sign the statement.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
Exactly. RMP3, as seems the way he is, was totally disingenuous. I was pointing out that given the large age gap, there could well be issues, and the age difference/the younger person being 17 isn't irrelevant. Indeed for leading SWP members to say it is irrelevant is a madness. If someone was 25 and 55 I would have no issue, but there clearly could be issues with someone being a teenager, and the other person being nearly 50. Add to this the difference in one person being in a role such as a teacher or political leader and it adds a further dynamic.
By the way in reply to emanyton earlier I was told the second allegation against Martin Smith of sexual harassment was also from someone a lot younger. If that wasn't the case, fair enough, but doesn't change the general issue.
RMP3 you appear to be getting several cases mixed up.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
I think people should be very careful with the Steve Hedley case in terms of the allegations and counter allegations, and even thought I feel quite strongly about it, I won't.
But what is a fact is that on an open facebook group he made comments to a young woman stating that she needed to go out and get herself a partner, then telling her the reason she hasn't got one is that she looks like a bulldog being swamped by a wasp and that he couldn't tell whether she was a man or woman from her picture. He also commented on her mental health issues. The fact that he made such totally sexist and misogynistic comments isn't in dispute, there are screen shots.
If a deputy general secretary made openly racist comments then I'm sure they would be removed from their post. What is the difference with totally sexist and misogynistic comments? It makes it even worse that he is a long standing socialist.
But what is a fact is that on an open facebook group he made comments to a young woman stating that she needed to go out and get herself a partner, then telling her the reason she hasn't got one is that she looks like a bulldog being swamped by a wasp and that he couldn't tell whether she was a man or woman from her picture. He also commented on her mental health issues. The fact that he made such totally sexist and misogynistic comments isn't in dispute, there are screen shots.
If a deputy general secretary made openly racist comments then I'm sure they would be removed from their post. What is the difference with totally sexist and misogynistic comments? It makes it even worse that he is a long standing socialist.
One_Stop_Shop
Well-Known Member
I hope my post wasn't in any way conflating the two, it certainly wasn't meant to. I don't want to comment on the allegations about Steve Hedley for various reasons.
The facebook comments are totally seperate and I think they are fair enough to comment on.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Sheffield SWSS students have formed http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/UniOfSheffRevsoc?notif_t=fbpage_fan_invite - hopefully that's enough of a distraction to keep some of the more obnoxious ones away from important adult things...
discokermit
Well-Known Member
twat.
andysays
Love and solidarity
To be fair to RMP3 (not something I thought I'd be writing!) there are quite a few cases coming out now, so perhaps it's not surprising that he's mixing them up.
But seriously, yes, he is being totally disingenuous. If it were just the age difference, perhaps some of his
That's before we even start on what happen once W went to the Party, and before we consider the nature and character of Smith himself, who many sources describe as an aggressive bully.
Adding it all together, dismissing this by attempting to argue that criticising a relationship between two people of such different ages is an indication of bourgeois morality is fucking ludicrous.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Apologies, yes you did take care to keep them separate. But if his Facebook behaviour is typical, it can be quite easy to regard his statement with a pinch of salt. I just thought it worth making the point.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Sheffield SWSS have been very good during all of this, it doesn't make a good percentage of their members any less obnoxious.
discokermit
Well-Known Member
fuck off.
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