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SWP expulsions and squabbles

That Sheffield SWSS status stream last night was indeed pretty weird. There's a pretty clear claim in it thought that there were a significant number of resignations in Sheffield last night.
 
butchersapron said:
Actually the SWSS have been one of the prime gateways for identity politics in universities and among the wider young. You trained them to defend what you now pretend you reject.
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I had a mate who worked in a pub who was encouraged by the management to break the rules and take a plate of chips each shift, everyone else was encouraged to do that and the manager did it too. When the management wanted an excuse to sack him, they sacked him for stealing food.
 
J Ed said:
I had a mate who worked in a pub who was encouraged by the management to break the rules and take a plate of chips each shift, everyone else was encouraged to do that and the manager did it too. When the management wanted an excuse to sack him, they sacked him for stealing food.
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That, comrades, is the dialectic in action...
 
bolshiebhoy said:
On the contrary the party didn't train them to be that way, it didn't do a very good job of challenging the training they were getting from their identity politics professors and mates. It needs to now, though clearly that's going to lead to a certain turnover.
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Identity politics professors? Uhhh, what do you think goes on in universities?
 
ViolentPanda said:
And that isn't enough? Have you tried to read the dreck he calls poetry?
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I managed one poem and since then have studiously avoided reading a second. The thing is though, that while it is weird that they publish it, it's only once AWL members start defending its artistic significance that I'll start thinking there's something actually cultish going on!
 
bolshiebhoy said:
it didn't do a very good job of challenging the training they were getting from their identity politics professors and mates. It needs to now
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For what though, what's the SWP plan now? - build Marxism, build Unite the Resistance!

Do you actually think the SWP carried out its duty to the world-wide working-class over the Sheffield affair and Delta case?
 
ResistanceMP3 said:
I'm not talking about people in general, I'm talking about this woman. What reasons have been given in this thread, for this particular woman not going to the police, then or NOW? I don't know that information, do you have a link to that in this thread, or elsewhere. Especially now, it is being discussed on the Internet daily. I don't think immigrant status is an issue here, is it?:confused:

The woman involved has gone to the press. She said she didn't go to the police, for fear of being expelled. Then she left the party. The woman involved then returned to the party, and asked for disputes committee to handle it. She knew who they were, it would be people who knew Martin Smith. It would be pretty hard for people not to know Martin Smith in such a tiny organisation (I meant to raise this issue before). You say the could have found a way, how in such a tiny organisation could they do that democratically?

I actually agree with you about the Lib Dems, and that it has been dealt with badly, but given the structures of the party at the time, I come to the conclusion if you really really really wanted to put the interests of the party, before the interests of the individuals Martin Smith and the woman, you should have refused to deal with it. With the structures of the party at the time, there was no other way to safeguard the interests of the party. (You cannot just throw away a rule book in a political party. But even if you had, people would still have made this an issue.)

Looking at it from this perspective, the interests of the party, just for one moment, you could equally ask, why didn't they put the interests of the party above those of the two individuals, and refuse to handle it? What do you think the answers to this question would be?

I think you see the fairness in the arguments, it would have been impossible to restructure the party, in an adequate time frame, protecting everybody's privacy. This gives them the option of going outside the party. Have people made suggestions of organisations the party could have given this issue to deal with, outside the party, which would have guaranteed privacy not only for the individuals involved, but for the party?

I know the person that sat with the woman, if Rita is who I think it is. The woman that went back in and complained about how the situation had been dealt with by the disputes committee, and I trust her judgement. Don't think there is any excuse for this. The party should have gone outside, if they were going to handle it themselves, and find out what questions to ask, and how you asked them. But to be honest with you, even if they had handled it better, I cannot see people like the Daily Mail ever not making political capital out of this situation. The only way, and I realise this is just opinion, but the only way in my opinion they could have put the interests of the party first, was to not touch this with a barge pole.

This is all just speculation, from me. I don't know why they did this. I know at least two of the people involved, having worked closely with them for several years. Then there is Pat Stack. (Do have a full list of names of people on the disciplinary committee?) Would I consider everybody involved feminists? Absolutely!

I actually, in the end don't have answers. Only questions. Even the woman's use of the word slut, brings up questions. That's why I chose not to discuss it before now. Apparently if you don't defend them, you are wrong, and if you do defend them, you are wrong. Well what happens when you just choose to ask questions? Is that reasonable?

GTG
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I have no idea why she hasn't gone to the police. The point is there could be a myriad of reasons.

Also she hasn't gone to the press. Why are you just making things up? Why are you almost putting the blame on the woman who has made the rape allegation by saying she would know who the dipsutes committee was. This is bollocks. The SWP even said that if people knew the people involved they could step aside. One person who knew the woman chose to. Martin Smith's mates chose to stay on. This didn't have to happen. They could have found people in the SWP who, even if they knew him, weren't his mates. That shouldn't have been too hard.

I think they wanted to handle it internally so they could try and minimalise any publicity about it and, as they did with the Sheffield incident, leave members not knowing the truth. Initially this was successful, and they managed to get a standing ovation for Martin Smith knowing that he had slept with a 17 year old teenager and that an allegation of sexual harassment had been made, but then this back fired massively. They could have got help from organisations that deal with rape victims. They could have got independent legal advice. Why is the privacy of the party of any significance when you are talking about a rape allegation? This in itself shows the mindset of where you are coming from.

Of course the Daily Mail would always make capital out of anything for totally the wrong reasons. But surely the important thing is the interests of the women who have alleged rape and sexual abuse? As it happens if they had put them first, it would be a lot harder for the right wing to use the incident for their own purposes.

The fact that you have people like BB making the disgusting comments that he is, and long term trade unionist SWPers selling their papers for the first time in years and calling the woman a liar says it all about how rotten the SWP has become. And that's not because they are being attacked by a "certain kind of feminist", it's because this has resulted from an organisation with stalinist methods and politics which seems to be degenerating more and more quickly. But it's political methods were always going to lead down a dead end, as their various dishonest front organisations show.

Then of course there is the shameful way the Sheffield organiser was dealt with.
 
"Jo C didn’t really contribute anything to the meeting. In fact, when an FE student made a contribution, instead of listening intently and trying to answer his question as best she could, she instead chose to heckle him. This was incredibly rude and inappropriate, not least because she’s a middle aged adult and the FE student is one of the youngest members of the organisation. When the same FE comrade asked for advice as to how we build in FE, he was told to “call a meeting” with no explanation as to how and with whom."

Oh dear, she was one of the better ones I recall...
 
"along with considering the role of EAN to relate to current struggles like the Sussex Occupation where SWSS has not been able to intervene and very few remain SWP members."


Good, that's why it is so imaginative and possibly successful...
 
Nigel Irritable said:
A certain turnover? Apart from the 5 groups that have left so far, the rest appear to be in such disarray that there are approximately 15 left nationally in a state where they can send two delegates to a national meeting, and those still seem to be in revolt. You aren't talking about "a certain turnover" but the near complete destruction of SWSS as it stood a year ago and an attempt to start, if not quite from scratch, then from some shattered remnants.

Now you might think that's necessary or that it's the least bad option, but you should at least be clear about what it means. Particularly given that the SWP has been largely built and reproduced through the continuous recruitment SWSS has provided.
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I suspect next academic term the left unity/people's assembly student groups will be more prominent, there is already a L/U Westminster Uni group, having said that, apart from Sussex, student politics is marginal now, austerity is dominant...

http://www.facebook.com/swss.sheffield

btw, this dissident has three siblings in SWSS at various uni's, must have a pater in the SWP...
 
Nigel Irritable said:
That Sheffield SWSS status stream last night was indeed pretty weird. There's a pretty clear claim in it thought that there were a significant number of resignations in Sheffield last night.
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"Last night we lost a large number of SWP members in Sheffield, in case you've not noticed we are in mourning."

from FB, do they mean SWP or SWSS?
 
Left Unity website had 16'000 hits last night, I wonder how many the SWP's had, a party in rapid decline...

I gather the Loach film, Spirit of 45 is having quite an impact.
 
treelover said:
I gather the Loach film, Spirit of 45 is having quite an impact.
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I know there's absolutely no chance of getting it but I'd love to see some kind of analysis of who's going to see that film - if it's just the usual suspects then the impact will be minimal, other than maybe just offering a bit of motivation to people who might have fallen out of political activity. If it's attracting a wider audience it could be, as I think you're implying, quite significant. I suspect the former myself but then again I'm always very skeptical about these kinds of things.

I got into a bit of a discussion with Owen Jones on facebook the other day, I was explaining why I thought his peoples assemblies/left unity (or whatever it is the one he's involved in is called) looked destined to go the same way as coalition of resistance, unite the resistance, right to work, etc and I was saying that I thought you first needed a real base in w/c communities - community associations/Unite community type groups or whatever, on the back of which something like that could have a chance of success provided those groups were the ones who shaped its program, and so efforts are best put into that. He said he agreed that was the most important thing and that he spoke at a unite community meeting in Portsmouth. So I asked him if, since he was a local lad, he'd be willing to speak at a meeting in Sheffield - it would give us a massive boost just in terms of fund raising (all the students and m/c lefties would pay to hear him and we could let our members and the unwaged in for free) and we'd hopefully attract at least some people who wanted to get involved. That was when he stopped replying to me. I've asked him again, very politely, three times and he's still ignoring me. He was willing to reply to defend his baby but he's not willing to give me an answer to that - even though I said I'd understand if he couldn't. I suspect he doesn't want to do it cos he'd rather get the ego boost from a big assembly meeting but doesn't want to say cos that would look bad on him.

So if anyone gets into any kind of interractions with Owen Jones online if you ask that same question I'll be your bestest mate forever, especially if you actually manage to get an answer out of him!
 
bolshiebhoy said:
On the contrary the party didn't train them to be that way, it didn't do a very good job of challenging the training they were getting from their identity politics professors and mates. It needs to now, though clearly that's going to lead to a certain turnover.
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It fucking did! From Stop the War ONWARDS the fucking bastard CC laid down the commands: Make a big thing about oppression - especially Muslims, cos they're super oppressed! Demand meetings be held in places with no alcohol so you don't offend Muslims - even if there are none! If people refuse to meet in "dry" meeting rooms, call them a racist! If anyone asks why you're so obsessed with Muslims, call them a racist! If anyone disagrees with you, call everybody a racist! If someone you dislike disagrees with a women over anything, even if you agree with them, call them a sexist! If someone talks about masculinity or feminity, call them a homophobe or a gender stalinist or whatever hip new term you read in the new statesmen. If you have a disagreement, don't get into a political discussion with them, pick an innocuous word and get FUCKING OFFENDED. Comrades - identity politics is here! Now we can get our own way by being hyper-offended by LITERALLY FUCKING ANYTHING!

You know what you did you bastard, what your party did, and we had to deal with it for fucking YEARS. You can reap what you damn well sow.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
That Sheffield SWSS status stream last night was indeed pretty weird. There's a pretty clear claim in it thought that there were a significant number of resignations in Sheffield last night.
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They are fucking weird to be fair. Like, really weird. I'm not gonna lie, the idea of them wanting to join our lot fills me with dread. Fortunately the identity politics which saturates them means they probably won't. Their only other discernible political traits are making incredibly old jokes about bacon whenever they see a copper, and sleeping in whenever there's a big demo on. A couple of them could be potentially useful, but the level of de-programming needed is mountainous. Dunno what they were like before the SWP but they're damaged goods now.
 
To paraphrase Karl Marx on religion, the demand to abolish banking is a demand to abolish the state of affairs that needs banking.
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So wrote Richard Seymour in an article in yesterday's Guardian. Pity it was SEYMOUR but it's not going to make him popular with those here who regard any talk of abolishing money and banking as wildly and hilariously utopian.
 
One_Stop_Shop said:
Of course there are circumstances which are none of our business. But it doesn't make you a bourgeois moralist to think what the hell is a 48 year old leader of a socialist organisation doing trying to go to bed with a 17 year old, and another teenager not much older.
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I agree, but can you just for clarification. The second women you are referring to is not the women who made the second complaint, as she was not in her teens and never went to bed with Delta. So you then know of another teenager he had an affair with the women involved has made no compliant to the SWP? So there are now at least three women involved, although one of them has made no complaint?
 
butchersapron said:
Rubbish - you lot hid behind them for 2 decades - you did it on here, cheering on every islamophobe! sexist! smear against people that you disagreed with.

What this shows is two things. Firstly, that the content of the smears are interchangeable - they can flip from being examples of identity politics to attacks on identity politics. The model remains though- hysterical shouting by junior trots, stealthily directed by people like you. And secondly, the ownership of the real politics of the SWP by an small core of longer term members who do hold the real positions, but are quite happy to have a wider membership who disagree with them on pretty much everything, even to encourage these disagreements as long as they can a) do the footwork b) pay for their jobs and c) make it look like the party is progressing rather than allowing people to to see the apolitcal hollowed out potemkin party based on covert accepted elitism that it really is.
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The position was always more subtle than for or against identity politics per se. Resisting Islamophobia was one of the better things the SWP did in that period. But if you remember it actually meant pissing off a layer of people who had a problem with Islam's attitude to sex and gender. One of the first debates I remember having on here was about German's remark about there being no shibboleths in Respect, gay issues in particular. Standing with Muslims against the tide of shit being thrown at them meant not screaming at them at every opportunity about the treatment of women in Islam and making that a condition of working with them, a subtlety that would be lost on the current student opposition. The approach was fine, the problem was a section of the leadership - the all knowing leadership even! - went native in the anti war movement.
 
treelover said:
"Jo C didn’t really contribute anything to the meeting. In fact, when an FE student made a contribution, instead of listening intently and trying to answer his question as best she could, she instead chose to heckle him. This was incredibly rude and inappropriate, not least because she’s a middle aged adult and the FE student is one of the youngest members of the organisation. When the same FE comrade asked for advice as to how we build in FE, he was told to “call a meeting” with no explanation as to how and with whom."

Oh dear, she was one of the better ones I recall...
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Your memory is faulty.
 
bolshiebhoy said:
The position was always more subtle than for or against identity politics per se. Resisting Islamophobia was one of the better things the SWP did in that period. But if you remember it actually meant pissing off a layer of people who had a problem with Islam's attitude to sex and gender. One of the first debates I remember having on here was about German's remark about there being no shibboleths in Respect, gay issues in particular. Standing with Muslims against the tide of shit being thrown at them meant not screaming at them at every opportunity about the treatment of women in Islam and making that a condition of working with them, a subtlety that would be lost on the current student opposition. The approach was fine, the problem was a section of the leadership - the all knowing leadership even! - went native in the anti war movement.
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Don't really want to open the debate again but I thought the shibboleth thing was massively overblown. To me it was just restating the basic principle of solidarity like the old, old line about what do you do if you are on a picket line and someone makes a racist/sexist/homophobic remark, do you
A, ignore it
B, 'argue' about it but stay on the picket line
C, Say you will not unite with them and leave the picket line.
The best response is of course B, which is all I think Germany was saying, problem is she and the rest of the leadership tended to go for A in practice, which is probably what lead them to 'go native'
 
sihhi said:
Andy Newman telling off South African dockworkers in refusing to unload high-tech weaponry from China to Harare, later sent by plane: “As i understand it, the dockers were following the pro-MDC position of South African leftists like Patrick Bond"
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Inevitable and some would say timely intervention when you have reached the world helicopter seat of being the fixtures secretary for Swindon Labour Party
 
bolshiebhoy said:
The position was always more subtle than for or against identity politics per se. Resisting Islamophobia was one of the better things the SWP did in that period. But if you remember it actually meant pissing off a layer of people who had a problem with Islam's attitude to sex and gender. One of the first debates I remember having on here was about German's remark about there being no shibboleths in Respect, gay issues in particular. Standing with Muslims against the tide of shit being thrown at them meant not screaming at them at every opportunity about the treatment of women in Islam and making that a condition of working with them, a subtlety that would be lost on the current student opposition.
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Resisting Islamophobia while pissing on women and gays - nice work, and how very subtle!

bolshiebhoy said:
The approach was fine, the problem was a section of the leadership - the all knowing leadership even! - went native in the anti war movement.
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WTF does "went native" mean in this context?
 
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