SWP expulsions and squabbles

[cesare]

You've had your answer. The story is vague, it has various aspects which are hard to believe and therefore require a bit more than a simple allegation to be sustained.

And I haven't made ANY assumptions. You have. I haven't said it IS false, I have said I find it hard to believe.

I dont do it automaticlly at all.

But in this case its because it reaks of bullshit. It just doesnt make sense.

Ie you don't believe it.

 

[belboid]

Ie you don't believe it.

saying that, on present evidence, I am not convinced is quite different to me making any 'assumptions.' Come on, you know the difference.

 

[sihhi]

Of course. If it is true it is way beyond grotsque. But there is so much of it that just doesnt ring true - can you think of any older female comrades believing forty year old blokes telling teenagers to strip and rub baby oil into them was in any way 'sexually liberated?' I mean, anyone would run a fucking mile and scream if they saw that happening, surely?

Let me repeat, the content on his blog - on the basis of who he is and what he has posted before - can be trusted, in my opinion. The SWP leadership did give them a "bollocking" as the email account makes clear. I am not sure what your point is.

 

[treelover]

http://www.leninology.com/2013/03/the-crisis-in-swp-part-iv.html

Nothing new but I thought what was interesting was the timeline of people breaking rank over what happened at conference. If it wasn't for the intervention of others, Seymour would have kept everything hushed up. What does that say about his attitude towards any further potential victims of disputes committee deliberations when nothing had been resolved?

^

" I can’t claim to be entirely innocent. I was in this party for 28 years. I must have accepted claims that didn’t make sense, and ignored accounts of appalling behaviour, or sighed and hoped the tricky issue I heard about would go away of its own accord. Somehow the critical faculties that led me to join a socialist group deserted me with regard to the group itself.”

from SU blog


exactly, a lot of the ex SWP are also damaged goods, this is what a former member, Foom, with 28 years membership(28 years, ffs) has to say of his own behaviour...

 

[belboid]

Let me repeat, the content on his blog - on the basis of who he is and what he has posted before - can be trusted, in my opinion. The SWP leadership did give them a "bollocking" as the email account makes clear. I am not sure what your point is.

Sorry, but 'makes clear' involves an assumption that it is all true. It is a claim, not a fact.

And, while I take what you say about Phil, that just means he has taken and posted it in good faith. The motivation of the emailer, we have no idea about. Given the nature of the allegations involved, I dont see how I am being unreasonable in saying it requires something to back it up before I wholly believe it.

 

[treelover]

tbh, my experience of all the various groups has been quite poor in terms of emotional literacy, imo, AWL, yes them, have been the most successful in terms of empathy, understanding of people's needs, and briefly climate camp...

 

[SpineyNorman]

treelover - Can't say that's been my experience of them - they seem even more obsessed with lefty trainspotting than we are on these boards - more interested in what the other left groups are doing than trying to work their way out of the lefty bubble we're all stuck in to varying degrees. One of them once told me they were establishing a base within the working class in Sheffield, and the evidence they gave me for that was that they were working with AFED. No disrespect to AFED but working with them isn't the same as establishing a w/c base.

And as far as I know they've never admitted they were wrong to support the Iraq war.

 

[killer b]

^

" I can’t claim to be entirely innocent. I was in this party for 28 years. I must have accepted claims that didn’t make sense, and ignored accounts of appalling behaviour, or sighed and hoped the tricky issue I heard about would go away of its own accord. Somehow the critical faculties that led me to join a socialist group deserted me with regard to the group itself.”

from SU blog


exactly, a lot of the ex SWP are also damaged goods, this is what a former member, Foom, with 28 years membership(28 years, ffs) has to say of his own behaviour...

or indeed what ex-member mark steel had to say, as discussed in detail on this thread.

 

[frogwoman]

I find the AWL are quite good sometimes on things like anti-semitism. Unfortunately they often confuse opposition to it with apologias for the Israeli state though.

 

[Pickman's model]

I find the AWL are quite good sometimes on things like anti-semitism. Unfortunately they often confuse opposition to it with apologias for the Israeli state though.

worked with them once or twice, and although they're very worthy they're often ok.

 

[butchersapron]

Awful people whose mag, oddly enough, used to be quite good.

 

[treelover]

treelover - Can't say that's been my experience of them - they seem even more obsessed with lefty trainspotting than we are on these boards - more interested in what the other left groups are doing than trying to work their way out of the lefty bubble we're all stuck in to varying degrees. One of them once told me they were establishing a base within the working class in Sheffield, and the evidence they gave me for that was that they were working with AFED. No disrespect to AFED but working with them isn't the same as establishing a w/c base.

And as far as I know they've never admitted they were wrong to support the Iraq war.

I really mean the older ones who tbh are not very active now, except in their unions, etc...

 

[frogwoman]

They're also still doing the entryist thing inside the Labour party ...

 

[treelover]

or indeed what ex-member mark steel had to say, as discussed in detail on this thread.

having a go again?

 

[killer b]

yeah.

 

[chilango]

Do you know what i'm finding really pathetic over this is that during the 'rebel warrior years' we had, what 8 years, of the most vacuous hardcore identity politics aggressively thrown at us by the swp members on here (usually students or people who had finished their degree and still hanging around campus in one form or another) - every criticism of the party, of its actions, of RESPECT, of pretty much anything at all was met with cries of racist, islamophobe, or sexist etc. Now we find that this sort of politics really had nothing to do with the SWP or their views during this period, the members recruited post seattle weren't really identity obsessed lightweights at all, in fact they have always and did always reject all that stuff during their time on here. And now, they are CC loyalists - see the rat rebel warriors pathetic blog for an example. Ratfuckers always.

What's rebel warriors blog?

 

[butchersapron]

What's rebel warriors blog?

This shite.

 

[J Ed]

tbh, my experience of all the various groups has been quite poor in terms of emotional literacy, imo, AWL, yes them, have been the most successful in terms of empathy, understanding of people's needs, and briefly climate camp...

Not my experience of them at all.

 

[belboid]

This shite.

love the way he is condemning support for Syriza in one post and then, mmm, promoting Syriza in the very next one!

 

[SpineyNorman]

I really mean the older ones who tbh are not very active now, except in their unions, etc...

Ah right, I've probably never spoken to them then.

 

[chilango]

This shite.

Yuk.

Ta. Noted new alias too.

 

[likesfish]

They're also still doing the entryist thing inside the Labour party ...

Hows that possibly seen as a good idea?
They did that with the trades council in brighton its now just utterly ignored every so often somebody new turns up fins the whole things been decided before the meeting and leaves in disgust.
They got themselves kicked out of the unemployed centre by being secrative playing points of order and generally being dicks.
If you cant win against a bunch of hippys,losers and assorted lumpen what the fuck is your point?

 

[sihhi]

Sorry, but 'makes clear' involves an assumption that it is all true. It is a claim, not a fact.

And, while I take what you say about Phil, that just means he has taken and posted it in good faith. The motivation of the emailer, we have no idea about. Given the nature of the allegations involved, I dont see how I am being unreasonable in saying it requires something to back it up before I wholly believe it.

Phil's intro is:

I met P some years ago when I was around the SWP. A couple of years older then me, she came across as strong, confident, and earnest in the way most of us were when we joined our first revolutionary organisation. I recall her kicking my arse when, after a branch down the pub, I was dumb enough to venture the idea that fascists should have the freedom to speak and to organise too. P was a trusted and well-respected SWP activist who had a militant but wise head on her shoulders. Thinking back there was no inkling whatsoever the SWP had already put her through the wringer. When I fell away from the organisation P and I didn't see each other for 10 years when, coincidentally, we ended up at the same university with an overlapping social circle. By then her SWP days were well behind her but, thankfully, her commitment to the labour movement and the cause of working people remained undimmed. She has since gone on to become a full-time union organiser. P and I have been corresponding off and on about the SWP's crisis. Nevertheless, despite all that has come to light I was shocked to read the testimony she chose to share with me, which I reproduce here with her permission.

He's saying that the emailer is someone he trusts. Perhaps the emailer is doing so now, because she feels she has to after what has happened to other young women such as W, to lend further weight to the fact that W was smeared and rumours spread about he, in a similar way to her as an 18-year old.
Part of the bit about the parties is second-hand:

I made a complaint to the Party HQ after an event I didn't attend but an old school mate of mine did. He was interested in politics and was considering joining, no chance after what he was subjected to. The comrades, most of them women i'm ashamed to say, got the twister board game out. The conventional rules were not applied, in this version if you fell over you weren't out, you were instructed to remove an item of clothing and nominate another comrade to rub baby oil into that part of your body. I think those older female comrades believed themselves to be sexually liberated by behaving this way.

But one house party she was present at:

I inadvertantly stumbled across a particularly revolting game involving the passing of chocolate cake by the mouth from one comrade to another. I didn't know what was happening in the room and walked in oblivious. A 14 yr old boy then ran over to me pushed me up against a wall and spat chocolate cake in my mouth. I ran out to the bathroom and threw up.

Because it was fairly unusual activity - spitting cake from mouth to mouth - and doesn't fit a model of a one-on-one abuse - the chance of it being publicised is slim, particularly as they appear to have stopped according to that sentence: "To be fair Lindsey German and Chris Bambery took what I said about these 'socials' seriously and bollockings were issued."

Collective small-scale abuse is still treated as something of a joke. When a video of an army naked initiation ritual for new recruits - probably 18 or 19 year olds - came out it was treated as a 'funny old army' story rather than an abusive practice inflicted from middle-ranks.

She didn't want to be part of this side of the socials, hence she is writing with some force, others who were there probably feel some guilt but also feel complicit and hence are unlikely to come out and give all the details.

 

[SpineyNorman]

If you cant win against a bunch of hippys,losers and assorted lumpen what the fuck is your point?

 

[the button]

love the way he is condemning support for Syriza in one post and then, mmm, promoting Syriza in the very next one!

Dialectics, innit.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Multitudinous positionism.

 

[butchersapron]

****

 

[DaveCinzano]

They're also still doing the entryist thing inside the Labour party ...

Have you stolen treelover's ellipsis?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Sorry, but 'makes clear' involves an assumption that it is all true. It is a claim, not a fact.

And, while I take what you say about Phil, that just means he has taken and posted it in good faith. The motivation of the emailer, we have no idea about. Given the nature of the allegations involved, I dont see how I am being unreasonable in saying it requires something to back it up before I wholly believe it.

Thing is you won't find much proof either way of anything we're discussing. As for the idea this stuff couldn't happen, well...

1) P says specifically that this was only happening in one branch, not that this behaviour was common.
2) It received a bollocking from high-ups.
3) Yeah, maybe he was 14. I've known 16/17 year olds in the SWP, I know of several who are members whose parents were members (one of whom was active from 13), and they could have had mates who were younger. Think about your average SWP organiser - they're not gonna do something as unrevolutionary as suggest that maybe under-18's should stick to lemonade, or give the fundraiser a miss? It's all about building camaraderie comrade...
4) Lots of middle aged men AND women are really not that averse to a bit of inappropriate touching of someone much younger if they can get away with it, particularly if they're pissed enough to blame the booze and particularly if it's part of a group activity - "if everyone else is doing it..." etc. I've never been in the SWP so I've no idea but it's certainly true of plenty of TU'ists, including moderately high-ups I've had the misfortune to meet.

 

[Jean-Luc]

I met P some years ago when I was around the SWP. A couple of years older then me, she came across as strong, confident, and earnest in the way most of us were when we joined our first revolutionary organisation. I recall her kicking my arse when, after a branch down the pub, I was dumb enough to venture the idea that fascists should have the freedom to speak and to organise too.

Sounds as if he might have been ok till the SWP got at him.