SWP expulsions and squabbles

[butchersapron]

And the marginalising of her because of the affair with older, married comrade.

Yep, married male comrade...

Also the suggestion that female members had taken on the role of covering up classical misogyny through their rejection of mainstream feminism. Few things maybe worth teasing out there.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And the marginalising of her because of the affair with older, married comrade.

It's not their job to police bourgeois morality comrade.

 

[treelover]

Btw, who were the 14 yr olds?, relatives, party members, local kids, incredible really...

 

[butchersapron]

Do you know what i'm finding really pathetic over this is that during the 'rebel warrior years' we had, what 8 years, of the most vacuous hardcore identity politics aggressively thrown at us by the swp members on here (usually students or people who had finished their degree and still hanging around campus in one form or another) - every criticism of the party, of its actions, of RESPECT, of pretty much anything at all was met with cries of racist, islamophobe, or sexist etc. Now we find that this sort of politics really had nothing to do with the SWP or their views during this period, the members recruited post seattle weren't really identity obsessed lightweights at all, in fact they have always and did always reject all that stuff during their time on here. And now, they are CC loyalists - see the rat rebel warriors pathetic blog for an example. Ratfuckers always.

 

[cesare]

It's not their job to police bourgeois morality comrade.

!

Since this thread, every time I see something prefaced with "bourgeois" I start expecting something unpleasant and not particularly characterised by working class mores to follow.

 

[belboid]

And the marginalising of her because of the affair with older, married comrade.

if its true. I suspect it isnt.

There was a brief thing of doing stuff like fundraising meals at peoples homes in the early nineties. But they werent only attended by students after the cheap beer, they were attended by the usual hotchpotch of keen swappies.

And 14 year olds? How many 14 year olds does the party attract? Not many. I doubt many members woyld be keen on letting a bunch of teenagers run riot round their house either.

 

[cesare]

if its true. I suspect it isnt.

There was a brief thing of doing stuff like fundraising meals at peoples homes in the early nineties. But they werent only attended by students after the cheap beer, they were attended by the usual hotchpotch of keen swappies.

And 14 year olds? How many 14 year olds does the party attract? Not many. I doubt many members woyld be keen on letting a bunch of teenagers run riot round their house either.

Why do you approach this by automatically assuming it's not true?

 

[belboid]

Why do you approach this by automatically assuming it's not true?

I dont do it automaticlly at all.

But in this case its because it reaks of bullshit. It just doesnt make sense.

 

[danny la rouge]

well thats...weak, and bizarre. Spitting chocolate cake into other comrades' mouth? What? Makes no sense.

There was a group of so-called comrades in ___ who were very fond of holding SWP fundraising social events in their homes. This invariably involved the hosts and their immediate circle, all being in their late 30s early 40s. The sensible comrades never attended these events, only skint teenagers attracted by the 50p per bottle of beer and free food would go to these things. By the end of the night when all the kids were drunk the adults would then suggest party games, spin the bottle, truth or dare that sort of stuff. I made a complaint to the Party HQ after an event I didn't attend but an old school mate of mine did. He was interested in politics and was considering joining, no chance after what he was subjected to. The comrades, most of them women i'm ashamed to say, got the twister board game out. The conventional rules were not applied, in this version if you fell over you weren't out, you were instructed to remove an item of clothing and nominate another comrade to rub baby oil into that part of your body.​

​

If these teenagers were as young as 14, then that does, in my view, constitute a serious allegation. If true, then those adults in their 30s and 40s were abusing their power and trust, and behaving abominably. Even if the teenagers were 16 and over, it is still a shocking abuse of their power differential.

 

[sihhi]

Using pre-existing power relations within the party to smear and besmirch younger women who pose a problem due to the poor judgement (at the very best) of older males.

He basically had me excluded from my local geographical branch, made out I was a stalker, and I did hear accusations levelled against me that I was a mentally disturbed heroin addict who had relentlessly pursued him. I was told by S I had to go to another branch. When I asked why me? It was the man who really was mostly at fault being as I had no broken any vows to anybody? I was told that he was a trade unionist in the civil service and I was just a student. S also indicated his belief that I was basically asking for it, though he didn't use those exact words, he said I had brought it on myself.

 

[sihhi]

If these teenagers were as young as 14, then that does, in my view, constitute a serious allegation. If true, then those adults in their 30s and 40s were abusing their power and trust, and behaving abominably. Even if the teenagers were 16 and over, it is still a shocking abuse of their power differential.

It would have you struck off the General Teaching Council even if the teenagers were 16-18, even if adults just set the thing up.

 

[cesare]

I dont do it automaticlly at all.

But in this case its because it reaks of bullshit. It just doesnt make sense.

If someone makes an allegation of this nature, surely it's best to try and keep an open mind til you find out more.

 

[danny la rouge]

It would have you struck off the General Teaching Council even if the teenagers were 16-18, even if adults just set the thing up.

Indeed.

 

[belboid]

It would have you struck off the General Teaching Council even if the teenagers were 16-18, even if adults just set the thing up.

does it strike you as actually plausible, tho? It would clearly be outrageous if it happened, but I really just dont see anyone allowing that kind of twaddle. If it was just youngsters after cheap beer, it wouldnt even raise much money (and subsidising marxism was the point), so why would they do it? Aha! Only because the money wasnt the point, the point was.....

 

[belboid]

If someone makes an allegation of this nature, surely it's best to try and keep an open mind til you find out more.

its a vague story on the internet. When it comes to vague stories on the internet, i start from a point of cynicism. Show me some evidence, or at least make the whole thing hang together sensibly.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I have to say that this line makes me think belboid *might* have a point here:

I think now all those who have stories like these need to air them somehow, the more of this stuff gets out there, the less likely it is the SWP will recover.

That doesn't mean they're not true though - need to be taken seriously and investigated.

 

[sihhi]

does it strike you as actually plausible, tho? It would clearly be outrageous if it happened, but I really just dont see anyone allowing that kind of twaddle. If it was just youngsters after cheap beer, it wouldnt even raise much money (and subsidising marxism was the point), so why would they do it? Aha! Only because the money wasnt the point, the point was.....

I'm taking it seriously on the basis that AVPS's blog is a reliable source. Yes the author is now an important figure in Stoke Labour Party, but his postings make sense.

 

[cesare]

its a vague story on the internet. When it comes to vague stories on the internet, i start from a point of cynicism. Show me some evidence, or at least make the whole thing hang together sensibly.

It's not a vague story though.

 

[treelover]

btw, haven't seen anyone as angry about the SWP as Anna Chen, though the people she thinks treated her like dirt have moved on


to counterfire...

 

[belboid]

It's not a vague story though.

Really? Where did it happen then? When did it happen? Over what time peroiod? What were the actuall ages of those involved. What was the final outcome? You obviously know all these things.

"Do let me know if you hear anymore, as you can imagine I'm keen to hear of the organisation's demise."

 

[cesare]

Really? Where did it happen then? When did it happen? Over what time peroiod? What were the actuall ages of those involved. What was the final outcome? You obviously know all these things.

"Do let me know if you hear anymore, as you can imagine I'm keen to hear of the organisation's demise."

Those are questions you should have asked before making a conclusion that the allegation's bullshit.

 

[sihhi]

"Do let me know if you hear anymore, as you can imagine I'm keen to hear of the organisation's demise."

Do you not think why someone might feel that way - after being labelled a mentally disturbed heroin addict when they had nothing wrong, simply to save the bacon of the more powerful senior male.

 

[belboid]

Those are questions you should have asked before making a conclusion that the allegation's bullshit.

 

[mk12]

I think now all those who have stories like these need to air them somehow, the more of this stuff gets out there, the less likely it is the SWP will recover.

Exactly - hopefully more people will come out (assuming there is more).

 

[cesare]

Asked, and waited for an answer.

 

[J Ed]

http://www.leninology.com/2013/03/the-crisis-in-swp-part-iv.html

Nothing new but I thought what was interesting was the timeline of people breaking rank over what happened at conference. If it wasn't for the intervention of others, Seymour would have kept everything hushed up. What does that say about his attitude towards any further potential victims of disputes committee deliberations when nothing had been resolved?

 

[mk12]

Sorry if I've missed it, but where did the 9 number of potential victims come from? My stepdad mentioned this to me yesterday as he'd read it in the Daily Mail (he has never mentioned the SWP to me before, but he remembered that I was once a member).

 

[belboid]

Do you not think why someone might feel that way - after being labelled a mentally disturbed heroin addict when they had nothing wrong, simply to save the bacon of the more powerful senior male.

Of course. If it is true it is way beyond grotsque. But there is so much of it that just doesnt ring true - can you think of any older female comrades believing forty year old blokes telling teenagers to strip and rub baby oil into them was in any way 'sexually liberated?' I mean, anyone would run a fucking mile and scream if they saw that happening, surely?

 

[belboid]

Asked, and waited for an answer.

You've had your answer. The story is vague, it has various aspects which are hard to believe and therefore require a bit more than a simple allegation to be sustained.

And I haven't made ANY assumptions. You have. I haven't said it IS false, I have said I find it hard to believe.

 

[sihhi]

The basic point is here

The crisis had gone public; it was not because of us, and there was no way that we could avoid responding to it.

This is stunning however:

For example, it quickly became clear that 'Comrade Delta' was being finessed back into full-time politics. This, days after the Disputes Committee transcript had been leaked. Then it emerged that full-time party workers were being called into individual meetings with CC members, and made to swear loyalty oaths: you defend the party line, or you're out. Those who didn't either quit, or were sacked.

So we had a CC that was even more nuts than before, a slavish Lords, a purge of the full-timers, a fracturing tendency and, amid the leaking of the party's shameful business, an attempt to restore the accused to full-time work.

Sorry if I've missed it, but where did the 9 number of potential victims come from? My stepdad mentioned this to me yesterday as he'd read it in the Daily Mail (he has never mentioned the SWP to me before, but he remembered that I was once a member).

Here http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/swp-expulsions-and-squabbles.303876/page-308#post-12061285