SWP expulsions and squabbles

[SpineyNorman]

What people? Those people coming? Oh no, you mean "the working class" don't you? Yet another patronising, paternalistic arsehole. Speak for yourself or speak for no-one. Anyone claiming to speak for the class is either a charlatan or a marxist. Most probably both.

Oh christ, another complete and utter fuckwit. What on earth are you talking about? Where did I claim to be speaking for 'the class'? How on earth did you get that from the text you've quoted?

I don't need to call you patronising or anything else - you're just a thick tosser.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I realise that SpineyNorman and it's a fair question. All I can base this on is the branch I was in and it's fair to say that the Women's Voice group did it was true operate on their own, well they would being a women's group, but that didn't deflect from the exclusion of other things, as being expressed here and in the piece from Harman and others at the time. In fact I would go further and say that WV had an impact on the newer, male, working class members, who had been recruited around ANL mk 1 and Rock Against Racism. Making them more aware of issues affecting working class women, in the workplace and in the home - exploitation, discrimination, abuse and rape, who then went out and were more able to challenge on these issues.

Thanks audiotech, that's exactly what I was after.

 

[rioted]

you're just a thick tosser.

Coming from a marxist, especially of the lenin/trotsky/stalin tradition, I consider that a compliment. Thankyou. Peace.

Of course, anyone outside of your narrow, bigoted, sectarian, blinkered position wouldn't have a clue, would they?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Coming from a marxist, especially of the lenin/trotsky/stalin tradition, I consider that a compliment. Thankyou. Peace.

Of course, anyone outside of your narrow, bigoted, sectarian, blinkered position wouldn't have a clue, would they?

I'm not of the 'Lenin/Trotsky/Stalin tradition', I'm a Marxist of the Spiney tradition - in terms of historical perspectives I find more to agree with in autonomist writings than Trotskyist or Leninist ones but nevermind that. I've got plenty of respect for people who disagree with me if they at least make sense and disagree with what I've actually said. So I don't think you're a fuckwit because you disagree - it would be difficult to think that because you've clearly not understood a word I've said so how could you know whether you disagree or not? It's just you who hasn't got a clue - I can tell that because basic comprehension seems to be completely beyond your capabilities.

You do realise that the 'people' I was talking about were the ones who drafted the statement right? I don't need to claim to speak for them, they spoke for themselves.

And now I'm apparently a bigot I guess we can add slander to idiocy on your list of personal failings.

 

[treelover]

Got it so wrong about Spiney there , me reckons...

rioted..

 

[audiotech]

Thankyou. Peace.

Anything to say apart from gross simplifications and name calling, littered with smillies?

 

[rioted]

I'm not of the 'Lenin/Trotsky/Stalin tradition', I'm a Marxist of the Spiney tradition - in terms of historical perspectives I find more to agree with in autonomist writings than Trotskyist or Leninist ones but nevermind that. I've got plenty of respect for people who disagree with me if they at least make sense and disagree with what I've actually said. So I don't think you're a fuckwit because you disagree - it would be difficult to think that because you've clearly not understood a word I've said so how could you know whether you disagree or not? It's just you who hasn't got a clue - I can tell that because basic comprehension seems to be completely beyond your capabilities.

You do realise that the 'people' I was talking about were the ones who drafted the statement right? I don't need to claim to speak for them, they spoke for themselves.

And now I'm apparently a bigot I guess we can add slander to idiocy on your list of personal failings.

Apologies.

Shouldn't post when I'm pissed. Especially after drinking with trots.

 

[Delroy Booth]

drinking with trots.

The book Cider with Rosie wishes it could've been.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, it might have escaped your admittedly limited attention span but the Labour party (unlike the steel picket lines) happens to still exist, and therefore you can't avoid some form of relation to it.

That's a fucking shit post, even for someone of your low standards.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

This been mentioned yet? http://internationalsocialismuk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/rosa-luxemburg-and-revolutionary-party.html

Tim Nelson attempts to re-Luxemburg the IS.

For a bunch of people who spend a lot of time saying how they don't care about the finer points of IS history, the splitters are very quickly reviving a lot of older debates. Separate womens org, Luxemburg.

 

[danny la rouge]

Any word yet of the awful, historical SWP allegations alleged to be coming this morning?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

some of those issues are hinted at in the stuff on intersectionality. You'll love it

And, you would hope that oppressed groups didnt feel any need to organise within a revolutionary group, but given what's happened, its hardly surprising that some do. And they have that right in all organisations.

Why not turn that on its head; you would hope that a revolutionary group would be convincing and coherent enough in its theory and practice that it would be able to accommodate/learn from the self-organisation of oppressed groups within itself.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[seventh bullet]

Sounds about right - this one. He seems to argue that the seeds of totalitarianism were already present in the avant-garde even before October. I rushed reading it in preparation for a presentation so I'm a bit sketchy as to the arguments but it seemed like he was implying that avant-garde artists were in some way responsible for totalitarianism.

As I said, I'm a bit sketchy on it but he also argued something along the lines that the USSR was in a way outside history and that even with the fall of the berlin wall it couldn't be re-inserted into history. Also something about how there can be no history if there's no God.

It was all really odd, made even odder by the fact I had to read it in a couple of hours so I probably misunderstood a fair bit of it.

Got the impression that he was very conservative too. I've got it on pdf somewhere if you've not read it and fancy a look.

Thanks, I'll take a look.

 

[andysays]

you would hope that a revolutionary group would be convincing and coherent enough in its theory and practice that it would be able to accommodate/learn from the self-organisation of oppressed groups within itself

I agree, you would hope that, but the hopes of this particular group have been pretty much dashed by their direct experience (if I understand this correctly) of how one specific self-proclaimed revolutionary group does things.

In all the circumstances, I think their programme and constitution is understandable, if naive in part and arguably getting its priorities wrong in places - it's a reaction against their experience within the SWP, which they have found not to be convincing and coherent enough in its theory and practice.

Fair play to them...

 

[Pickman's model]

Why not turn that on its head; you would hope that a revolutionary group would be convincing and coherent enough in its theory and practice that it would be able to accommodate/learn from the self-organisation of oppressed groups within itself.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

The only oppressed group allowed to self-organise in the swp is the cc.

And like the bourbons they learn nothing and forget nothing.

 

[The39thStep]

Ever decreasing circles. Lets not start with the fact that the far left is seen as irrelevant to most workers , or what working class communities see as key issues but lets start with what the far left see as key issues and the win students to that.

 

[Pickman's model]

Ever decreasing circles. Lets not start with the fact that the far left is seen as irrelevant to most workers , or what working class communities see as key issues but lets start with what the far left see as key issues and the win students to that.

9500 posts in.

 

[The39thStep]

9500 posts in.

The rev student manifesto is at 9450 .

Did ALARM have a no borders , caucuses for the oppressed, up the Palestinians line? Or did it focus more locally?

 

[butchersapron]

Any word yet of the awful, historical SWP allegations alleged to be coming this morning?

This seems to be it /them

 

[SpineyNorman]

Thanks, I'll take a look.

If you want to have a look at the PDF let us know and I'll stick it on the net somewhere for you.

 

[seventh bullet]

If you want to have a look at the PDF let us know and I'll stick it on the net somewhere for you.

Okay, post a link later mate.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Apologies.

Shouldn't post when I'm pissed. Especially after drinking with trots.

No worries mate.

 

[Pickman's model]

The rev student manifesto is at 9450 .

Did ALARM have a no borders , caucuses for the oppressed, up the Palestinians line? Or did it focus more locally?

you'll have to ask someone in alarm.

 

[belboid]

This been mentioned yet? http://internationalsocialismuk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/rosa-luxemburg-and-revolutionary-party.html

Tim Nelson attempts to re-Luxemburg the IS.

For a bunch of people who spend a lot of time saying how they don't care about the finer points of IS history, the splitters are very quickly reviving a lot of older debates. Separate womens org, Luxemburg.

where did they say that? Nowhere, you just made it up.

 

[butchersapron]

They said the opposite, in fact. That article itself is evidence of it. Bizarre line of attack.

 

[belboid]

This seems to be it /them

well thats...weak, and bizarre. Spitting chocolate cake into other comrades' mouth? What? Makes no sense.

 

[butchersapron]

well thats...weak, and bizarre. Spitting chocolate cake into other comrades' mouth? What? Makes no sense.

I expect the thing that they thought might cause trouble was the revelation of adults allowing teenagers to get drunk and then encouraging them to play spin the bottle and other type stuff at their houses. Position of trust and all that stuff. Don't really know what to say about this one in all honesty.

 

[SpineyNorman]

well thats...weak, and bizarre. Spitting chocolate cake into other comrades' mouth? What? Makes no sense.

That certainly wasn't what you'd have expected from the way he hyped it up was it?

This line:

I think now all those who have stories like these need to air them somehow, the more of this stuff gets out there, the less likely it is the SWP will recover.

will play right into the hands of the ultra loyalist types - it's all about destroying 'the Party'.

 

[treelover]

40 somethings inviting teenagers to a party with booze and low level sex games, that isn't a problem?

the tabloids are going to pick up on all this...

Its WRP territory...

 

[cesare]

I expect the thing that they thought might cause trouble was the revelation of adults allowing teenagers to get drunk and then encouraging them to play spin the bottle and other type stuff at their houses. Position of trust and all that stuff. Don't really know what to say about this one in all honesty.

And the marginalising of her because of the affair with older, married comrade.