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SWP expulsions and squabbles

What are the lessons of the Stop the War movement? Consider people as lego blocks you pull into crap things, like how you drive a vehicle.
Campaigns absolutely explicitly are vehicles. There is nothing wrong with saying so. An organisatin isn't a worthwhile thing in itself, it is only any use in terms of what it achieves. It is absolutely a vehicle for change, and quite right too. You'll note how they include SWP fronts as 'vehicles' as well as non-party bodies.

The lego bricks is a simple continuation of Lenin, who always said how workers had no problems being seen as cogs in the machine, because that is what we do every day.
 
Internal Bulletin Bristol contribution:

"Leadership is a practical question. The sales of Socialist Worker on the question of the NHS have been reminiscent of the Stop the War period. Over 80 in Bristol last Saturday, around 150 in 3 days at various sales. The demonstration in Lewisham of 25,000 people shows the potential. There already exist a number of vehicles which could be used to call a National Demonstration. Keep the NHS Public, 38 Degrees, London Health Emergency could be used. I believe that the Party should now throw the kitchen sink at it. We should aim to leaflet streets, hospitals, workplaces and communities. Motions at union branches and anti-cuts groups, posters and electronic means are all essential. We should approach it in the way we approached the Stop the War Demo of 2002.
In doing this we would strengthen the hand of our comrades in the health unions to overcome the passivity in the bureaucracy of the unions, whether it is left leaning leaders or right.
However, I believe that we must learn the lessons of the Stop the War movement. We must not drop the profile of the Party. We must aim to build Socialist Worker supporters groups in every hospital. We must aim to build Socialist Worker sales at new workplaces.
We need to find the militants we can pull into Unite the Resistance and this could be the perfect vehicle."

Now i know what the phrase 'Keep calm and carry on' means...
 
Really? you should learn to read then Nigel.

If you think slating the entire industrial strategy, the failure of political leadership over two decades, the failure to retain the ISO (for wholly political - albeit unclear and probably dishonest - reasons), implicit (it seems to me) acceptance that 1989 led to far more serious setbacks than previously accepted, and the anti-fascist strategy has been seriously over-stated...if you think all of that is 'extraordinarily apolitical' well, that's your problem.


oh yes, sorry, I was wrong above. your problem isnt not being able to read. Its being a superior snot-nosed cunt who thinks he's better than everyone else, especially those thickies not in the SP. Remind me of those magnificent theoretical contributions and insights from the SP again? Oh yes, thats right. None. Ever.

Did your Mother write the article in question, or did someone just take a dump in your rice crispies?

The core thesis of the "Sigma" piece is that Cliff was a great man, but he left behind him a succession of epigones of gradually decreasing quatlity. And its rousing call to action is a call to remove Callinicos personally. That you have to start inventing from whole cloth "implicit" arguments about anti-fascism or the collapse of the Soviet Union, neither of which are actually mentioned in the article, should really be evidence enough that it's a personalised, soap operatic, account of characters at the top. It reads like one of those old histories of Medieval dynasties, founded by a great man but doomed to gradually decline because of the frailties of his grandchildren. Except writ laughably small.

As for my comment about the "letters from simpletons", the SWP may have more than its fair share of the kind of clown who prefers to talk about how many papers their branch sold this week than the crisis facing their organisation. And those clowns are currently on public display. But I certainly wouldn't argue that such head in the sand idiocy is unique to the SWP. Every organisation above a certain size will have its own quota of deeply closed minded punters, obsessed with their routine and actively hostile to any challenge to it. I'm quite sure that when Socialist Appeal split from Militant that there was some fool earnestly sending pieces to the internal bulletin about how all this talk was irrelevant and divisive and really we need to copy the example of Crewe branch's new paper sale technique.

It's completely irrelevant to either of the posts you were frothing about, but I'll stack the Socialist Party's theoretical heritage up against that of the SWP any day, although it too has its elements which are irrelevant now or were wrong all along. I realise that in the SWP's version of history, still accepted unthinkingly by some ex-members who really should know better, their were two basic strands of Trotskyism in the 20th Century, their allegedly iconoclastic, fresh thinking, "tradition" and their dismal caricature of the disoriented post war Fourth International. But in fact just about every strand of revolutionary, Trotskyist or otherwise, had to grapple with much the same questions. This is hardly a thread for the ritual exchange of "our 1950s theoretical work was better than your 1950s theoretical work" jibes however.
 
Did your Mother write the article in question, or did someone just take a dump in your rice crispies?
No, I just dont like superior wankers who think they're better than everyone else without offering any reason behind there thought. You and Callinicos are cut from exactly the same cloth. Examples of what is wrong with what is lefty of the rump of trotskyism, and why it well never go anywhere.

That you have to start inventing from whole cloth "implicit" arguments about anti-fascism or the collapse of the Soviet Union, neither of which are actually mentioned in the article,
well, fascism is mentioned explicitly in the article, so I come back to my point that you arent a very attentive reader. To talk of the BNP's 'implosion' is very clearly against the argument that it was the UAF what beat them. And the whole thing goes on about the mistakes that were made - after the collapse. You may think that that is a coincidence, but no decent kremlinologist would maker that mistake.

As for my comment about the "letters from simpletons", the SWP may have more than its fair share of the kind of clown who prefers to talk about how many papers their branch sold this week than the crisis facing their organisation. And those clowns are currently on public display. But I certainly wouldn't argue that such head in the sand idiocy is unique to the SWP. Every organisation above a certain size will have its own quota of deeply closed minded punters, obsessed with their routine and actively hostile to any challenge to it. I'm quite sure that when Socialist Appeal split from Militant that there was some fool earnestly sending pieces to the internal bulletin about how all this talk was irrelevant and divisive and really we need to copy the example of Crewe branch's new paper sale technique.
Lol, yeah, come and convince me that Syria was a deformed workers state. Good luck with that.
 
On the "isolation" of the "hard platform" who are "Pretty isolated" - well the "soft platform" say they shouldn't be expelled, which is nice. But the CC say ""every member is bound to uphold and defend the decision of conference in any public forum in which it is discussed, including online. If these norms of party behaviour are breached, we expect comrades to support and defend disciplinary action up to and including expulsion to enforce the will of the party as a whole.” - That is, they want every member to "uphold and defend" the "investigation" into rape (which is what they mean by the "decision of conference") in "any public forum" or be expelled. That is surely a recipe for reducing the party as a whole to a smaller, more isolated bunch.
Sorry but does anyone really expect SEYMOUR! to get a second free pass to shit all over his own party in public after this special conference!? No chance, the faction won't defend a repeat after this one. Assuming they haven't passed over into hard platformists themselves as a result of the decisions it makes.
 
No, I just dont like superior wankers who think they're better than everyone else without offering any reason behind there thought. You and Callinicos are cut from exactly the same cloth. Examples of what is wrong with what is lefty of the rump of trotskyism, and why it well never go anywhere.

Have you been drinking this morning, or is this just your delightful personality on full display?

belboid said:
well, fascism is mentioned explicitly in the article, so I come back to my point that you arent a very attentive reader. To talk of the BNP's 'implosion' is very clearly against the argument that it was the UAF what beat them. And the whole thing goes on about the mistakes that were made - after the collapse.

So, your defence of the political content of the Sigma article is now grounded in the following evidence: Zero mention of 1989, and a single mention of the BNP in a quote from Cliff, which, incidentally doesn't talk about the BNP's "implosion" at all. You are reading a great man and his sub-standard followers soap opera narrative, fitting it into your own world view and then attributing your own political explanations to the article which contains nothing of the sort.

Or perhaps you are conflating other articles on the same blog, which do actually go into detailed arguments about anti-fascism, industrial strategy and the like, with the "Sigma" piece and then getting confused and irate.

belboid said:
Lol, yeah, come and convince me that Syria was a deformed workers state. Good luck with that.

Why would I try and persuade you of that? If I was going to try to argue for one of Ted Grant's less than brilliant ideas, I'd pick a funnier one than that. Are you going to try to convince me of every one of the many and varied hair-brained notions Tony Cliff came out with?
 
Have you been drinking this morning, or is this just your delightful personality on full display?
Oh gosh, if only I had the personality to be so superior and condescending. That would be just lovely

So, your defence of the political content of the Sigma article is now grounded in the following evidence: Zero mention of 1989, and a single mention of the BNP in a quote from Cliff, which, incidentally doesn't talk about the BNP's "implosion" at all. You are reading a great man and his sub-standard followers soap opera narrative, fitting it into your own world view and then attributing your own political explanations to the article which contains nothing of the sort.
Are you inherently dishonest or just incapable of reading? I gave several clearly political judgements that come from that article, and you are simply ignoring them (because it suits your pisspoor argument to do so). The mention of the BNP isn't a quote from Cliff, it really does appear you have difficulty reading. It IS a disagreement with the official party line, isnt it? Same as the slating of the industrial strategy is political. The disagreements with the ISO are political.

Why would I try and persuade you of that? If I was going to try to argue for one of Ted Grant's less than brilliant ideas, I'd pick a funnier one than that. Are you going to try to convince me of every one of the many and varied hair-brained notions Tony Cliff came out with?
I cant think of a single other contribution the SP made, I'm afraid.
 
Oh gosh, if only I had the personality to be so superior and condescending. That would be just lovely

How entertaining to have someone launch into an entirely unprovoked rant about how I'm a cunt and then start whining about being condescended to in response.

belboid said:
Are you inherently dishonest or just incapable of reading? I gave several clearly political judgements that come from that article, and you are simply ignoring them (because it suits your pisspoor argument to do so). The mention of the BNP isn't a quote from Cliff, it really does appear you have difficulty reading. It IS a disagreement with the official party line, isnt it? Same as the slating of the industrial strategy is political.

The following is the only mention of the BNP in the Sigma article: "So, when Cliff and I spoke at a rally shortly before Tony Blair’s election, he declared his conviction that there would be “no honeymoon at all” for Blair – but “a race between the SWP and the BNP”, starting the very day after election night, to win over the myriads of rapidly frustrated Labour voters." This does not come after a discussion of fascism, or anti-fascist strategy, and it is not followed by one. The word fascism never appears at all in fact, nor fascists, far right, British National Party, etc. There is no mention at all of the collapse of Stalinism or "1989", nor is there anything much about industrial strategy, rank and fileism, the unions or anything closely related.

That you somehow managed to read this stuff into a 5,000 word article, largely concerned with the quality of Cliff's heirs and slightly squalid maneuvering in the international tendency, gives the conversation the slightly surreal edge of an argument with someone who thinks that there are messages from the Devil audible when you play Beatle's records backwards.

Either you are confusing the "Sigma" article with some other article or you are imagining things.
belboid said:
I cant think of a single other contribution the SP made, I'm afraid.

Some people wouldn't regard ignorance as a point of pride.
 
I cant think of a single other contribution the SP made, I'm afraid.

The National Question, particularly as it applies to Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka and Nigeria.

The effects of the collapse of Stalinism on consciousness, something the great intellectuals of the IS tradition still haven't managed to get their heads around 24 years later (I guess they are busy?)

The move to the right of the ex-social democratic parties and the rise of new formations to name but a few.
 
The lego bricks is a simple continuation of Lenin, who always said how workers had no problems being seen as cogs in the machine, because that is what we do every day.

I knew a bloke who built a lego recreation of that scene on the steps from Battleship Potemkin, but he used pirates for the sailors and stormtroopers for the guards and he didn't have a lego baby for the pram so he used Yoda.
 
This thread has given me a great idea: Trotskyist Top Trumps.

Each card represents a different Trot sect. The different values could be:

*Number of members at their peak
*Number of splits
*Number of ideological contributions to Marxist thought
*United fronts created
*Fashion (out of 10)
 
The National Question, particularly as it applies to Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka and Nigeria.

The effects of the collapse of Stalinism on consciousness, something the great intellectuals of the IS tradition still haven't managed to get their heads around 24 years later (I guess they are busy?)

The move to the right of the ex-social democratic parties and the rise of new formations to name but a few.
are you kidding? The SP were notoriously awful on Ireland, the analysis of Stalinism (in the run to to the demise and since) is laughable, and the rationale behind the move to the right is a combination of the obvious and the dubious as hell.
 
This thread has given me a great idea: Trotskyist Top Trumps.

Each card represents a different Trot sect. The different values could be:

*Number of members at their peak
*Number of splits
*Number of ideological contributions to Marxist thought
*United fronts created
*Fashion (out of 10)


Been done. Been discussed on here too. I had a homemade version back in 94 or so.
 
Player 1: "Workers Power, members 80"

Player 2: "Damn, AWL, 78 members.

Player 3. CPC 80 million...mine I think!"

Why not have marxist leninist top trumps? Obviouly trotskyists aren't going to do so well on the membership side when compared to some of their 3rd international cousins, but they should recover some ground when it comes to number of splits.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
World of TrotCraft: you start off as a student member in the St Ives College of Fine Arts and have to eventually become powerful enough to travel though dangerous areas full of high-level enemies, like Washington and Cairo. An easy way to level up is to start by fighting imaginary opponents, like the Autonomists that Wizard Callinicos can magic up for you to spar against.
 
southpark.jpg
 
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