SWP expulsions and squabbles

[SpackleFrog]

A quick moan.

I come from a small rural town that is over run with a higher than average EDL and BNP membership.

There is only one other person who's left of NIgel Farage in the town. So, he ends up getting and giving shit to goons. Last night a local fascist starts having a whinge on his facebook page. I pile in use a usually effective tactic of pulling out the bag the long list of nonces in the EDL and far right ranks. Even though he appeared to have no genuine knowledge of the paedos on his team he knew full well about Martin Smith and his allegations of rape.

So cheers for that!

In fairness mate, don't you think you should have posed a more effective criticism of the EDL and the rest of the far-right than "Well, they're like, all a bunch on nonces"? Shit politics in, Shit politics out.

 

[DrRingDing]

In fairness mate, don't you think you should have posed a more effective criticism of the EDL and the rest of the far-right than "Well, they're like, all a bunch on nonces"? Shit politics in, Shit politics out.

It's obviously not the only arguement I use against them. This lot are reactionary tabloid led idiots. They think they're doing their mums proud. The title 'nonce' carries a lot of weight.

 

[butchersapron]

Shit edl thread thataway mr dingding--->

New SWP party notes on the special conference of special kind.

 

[belboid]

does honestly seem that many of the platform lot do indeed know what the arguments of the old guard are about feminism etc and just don't accept them. At some point you have to make a call on what's to be gained from continued debate vs drawing a line and letting people decide which side they are on.

absolutely. But, the point of much of Stacks criticism of the CC is that they didn't actually debate the platforms arguments, but simply answered the criticisms they were used to from thirty years ago. And thats something I bet we've both seen them do over various issues over the years - answering the criticisms they are used to rather than the ones they are actually facing. It's not really a very useful way of convincing people, is it?

 

[KeeperofDragons]

This may be true but the whole spirt of Stack contribution is an appeal to the CC not to throw the baby out with the bath-water. (snip)

That is how I read it

 

[Red Cat]

You are correct that he makes it plain that he regards some prominent oppositionists (and he clearly means Seymour and his closest associates) as having "significant differences" with the SWP, and by unstated extension him. And it's also true that he poses much of his argument as tactical advice on how to deal with disquiet.

But it's worth noting that he at no point explains what those "significant differences" are, still less does he mount any argument against those holding them. Every single criticism he raises, every specific argument he makes, is aimed at the CC.

He does. He makes it clear that feminism cannot achieve women's liberation.

He's arguing that the CC have misinterpreted the new wave of feminism and as a result the older cadre haven't been sufficiently political in their responses; if they had been, then the group of people with Seymour wouldn't be as large. They still have a chance of persuading some to the SWP position if they listen and debate in a patient and rigorous way, thereby weakening the arguments and leadership of Seymour, saving the party from complete collapse.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It's obviously not the only arguement I use against them. This lot are reactionary tabloid led idiots. They think they're doing their mums proud. The title 'nonce' carries a lot of weight.

I see. So because they are stupid, it becomes neccessary for you to add to your very cogent class-based arguments the conclusion "and anyway they're all nonces."

I bet that worked really well, before this whole Martin Smith thing blew up. I bet loads of EDL members immediately began to question the far-right politics they'd been expressing up until they met you, whereupon you pointing out that some of the EDL are nonces led them to a reach a Damascus-like conversion and embrace the concept of class solidarity. I bet that now this Martin Smith thing is out there, the number of far-right nutters you're able to convert by pointing out that they are a load of nonces will dramatically fall.

I shudder to think of the repercussions for the class.

 

[articul8]

He does. He makes it clear that feminism cannot achieve women's liberation.

What does "feminism" mean in this context? Liberal identity politics? Radical feminist separatists? Is a socialist feminism unthinkable?!

 

[DrRingDing]

I see. So because they are stupid, it becomes neccessary for you to add to your very cogent class-based arguments the conclusion "and anyway they're all nonces."

I bet that worked really well, before this whole Martin Smith thing blew up. I bet loads of EDL members immediately began to question the far-right politics they'd been expressing up until they met you, whereupon you pointing out that some of the EDL are nonces led them to a reach a Damascus-like conversion and embrace the concept of class solidarity. I bet that now this Martin Smith thing is out there, the number of far-right nutters you're able to convert by pointing out that they are a load of nonces will dramatically fall.

I shudder to think of the repercussions for the class.

Most the of the far right I know identify with them as they see them as working class and not snotty middle class like your good self that would put anyone off the left.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Most the of the far right I know identify with them as they see them as working class and not snotty middle class like your good self that would put anyone off the left.

So stupid working class people can't take reasoned argument; how far do you want to push this?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[DrRingDing]

So stupid working class people can't take reasoned argument; how far do you want to push this?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

That's your snide projection.

 

[SpackleFrog]

That's your snide projection.

No, it's yours, you canniving little shit, don't try and turn it around. You called them "tabloid-led idiots" and decreed on this basis that you needed to employ mindless tabloid style accusations of being a nonce as a logical conclusion of an argument against the EDL. And don't you call me "snotty middle class" because it's not me who is so fucking convinced of their own superiority that they have the cheek to blame the EDL for their own brand of shitty patronising paternalistic bullshit excuse for politics. "Call them nonces - it's all they understand." You are a fucking disgrace.

 

[DrRingDing]

No, it's yours, you canniving little shit, don't try and turn it around. You called them "tabloid-led idiots" and decreed on this basis that you needed to employ mindless tabloid style accusations of being a nonce as a logical conclusion of an argument against the EDL. And don't you call me "snotty middle class" because it's not me who is so fucking convinced of their own superiority that they have the cheek to blame the EDL for their own brand of shitty patronising paternalistic bullshit excuse for politics. "Call them nonces - it's all they understand." You are a fucking disgrace.

 

[DrRingDing]

That's actually cheered me up. Nice one SpackleFrog, no harm meant. Welcome to the boards

 

[Red Cat]

What does "feminism" mean in this context? Liberal identity politics? Radical feminist separatists? Is a socialist feminism unthinkable?!

He says the new wave of feminism. I'm not familiar with it myself. It's also a long time since I read the SWPs arguments against socialist feminism. I'm not the person to ask.

I was merely interpreting Stack's letter as I see it. I didn't say anything about agreeing or not agreeing with him.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

What does "feminism" mean in this context? Liberal identity politics? Radical feminist separatists? Is a socialist feminism unthinkable?!

The question to ask is not what feminism means, but what Stack means in his statement. The answer that the CC gives to his comment is in point 7 of the Party Notes from the link posted by butchersapron namely:

It is not controversial that feminism can be part of a process that leads people into struggle and towards a Marxist understanding of the world. We are always on the side of feminists against oppression. But we are also for winning women, and men, to a revolutionary socialist view, not adapting to a different view..

That is the current CC line on the role of feminism in relationship to the SWP. That can be argued about of course.

 

[lazythursday]

Interesting how this thread has progressed. I swear that 150 or so pages back posters were commenting on the lack of a response at Lenin's Tomb, insinuating that Seymour was spineless. Now he's the 'christ like' leader of some dangerous anti-leninist faction with utterly different politics to the CC.

What struck me about that first post of Seymour's about the conference was how raw and visceral and angry it was at how those two women had been treated. The loyalists have done well at converting that gut visceral rebellion against natural justice into an attack on the SWP's heart and soul.

 

[Red Cat]

Now he's the 'christ like' leader of some dangerous anti-leninist faction with utterly different politics to the CC.

Who has said this?

 

[SpackleFrog]

That's actually cheered me up. Nice one SpackleFrog, no harm meant. Welcome to the boards

You're welcome. Next time you start to sense that your lack of analysis is a problem, feel free to come to me before you blame it all on Martin bloody Smith and the stupidity of the class as a whole. I'll do what I can for you.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

That's your snide projection.

You called them idiots; i.e. they are stupid. You said they identified with the EDL on a class basis; i.e. they're working class or see themselves as such. You choose the 'they're nonces' line of argument, rather than they're anti-working class. There is no projection on my part; so I ask again how far do you want to push your stupid working class people can't take reasoned argument line?

Louis MacNeice

 

[DrRingDing]

You're welcome. Next time you start to sense that your lack of analysis is a problem, feel free to come to me before you blame it all on Martin bloody Smith and the stupidity of the class as a whole. I'll do what I can for you.

High-minded, middle class, mental masturbation, would go down a treat I'm sure

 

[DrRingDing]

You called them idiots; i.e. they are stupid. You said they identified with then EDL on a class basis; i.e. they're working class or see themselves as such. You choose the 'they're nonces' line of argument, rather than they're anti-working class. There is no projection on my part; so I ask again how far do you want to push your stupid working class people can't take reasoned argument line?

Louis MacNeice

Yer full of shite. The far right I know do identify with the fash as they see them as working class. I usually take the line that the fash are anti-working class but I'll let you have your wank.

 

[lazythursday]

Who has said this?

Somebody. Some pages back. It's not really important. It's just that the change in how Seymour etc is being perceived is very noticeable on coming back to this thread after a long gap.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Yer full of shite. The far right I know do identify with the fash as they see them as working class. I usually take the line that the fash are anti-working class but I'll let you have your wank.

You dim wit, I'm not arguing with you about their identification as working class. I have been trying to point out that your sliding together of idiot and working class, and your subsequent pitching an argument at what you see as the correct low level, is a crock of shit. Not only that it has echoes of the Leninism you claim to abhor. Now dullard engage with the argument or piss off.

Louis MacNeice

 

[DrRingDing]

You dim wit, I'm not arguing with you about their identification as working class. I have been trying to point out that your sliding together of idiot and working class, and your subsequent pitching an argument at what you see as the correct low level, is a crock of shit. Not only that it has echoes of the Leninism you claim to abhor. Now dullard engage with the argument or piss off.

Louis MacNeice

Fap fap fap.

(Stop projecting 'Louis')

 

[DrRingDing]

sliding together of idiot and working class

I'm not 'sliding' together idiot and working class I'm 'sliding' idiot with fash.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I'm not 'sliding' together idiot and working class I'm 'sliding' idiot with fash.

So fash are idiots and can only deal with the 'nonces' argument; you still peddling a crock of shit and still not recognising what you're doing. Stop being angry and imagining me wanking and try thinking instead; it'll be a lot more rewarding.

Louis MacNeice

 

[redcogs]

i'm so excited! Just spotted a couple of waxwings in the garden. i place apple halves strategically for the blackbirds, but other types are encouraged also. Apparently waxwings pop across from Scandinavia for their winter jollies. Beautiful plumage colouration - and a high crest.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yer full of shite. The far right I know do identify with the fash as they see them as working class. I usually take the line that the fash are anti-working class but I'll let you have your wank.

I see, terribly sorry. I've misrepresented your position entirely. It's because they think the edl are a working class org that you have to call them nonces because nonces can't be working class.
Now I get it.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Somebody. Some pages back. It's not really important. It's just that the change in how Seymour etc is being perceived is very noticeable on coming back to this thread after a long gap.

There is a change, and that change is that the CC of the SWP have woken up and begun to smell the burning toast. Instead of just ignoring the challenge they have recognised it is there. They have started to respond further than Callinicos's written piece that studiously ignored the main issues. They are now on Plan B: hold a pre-emptive special conference on their own terms which they hope or plan to pull people back around a carefully re-presented party line. The results of this to be final and agreed by all. I wish them luck with that.