SWP expulsions and squabbles

[The39thStep]

why would anyone trust Socialist Unity?

 

[sihhi]

Does the anarchist scene invite journalists to their AGMs?

Does the anarchist scene have AGMs?

 

[DrRingDing]

Does the anarchist scene have AGMs?

Boot Fair!

 

[DotCommunist]

Does the anarchist scene have AGMs?

they have a bookfair!

 

[SpackleFrog]

So, SpackleFrog how many people have your efforts help persuade people to leave far right orgs?

As an individual over the last four years, 3 BNP and 1 EDL, not that it's significant or relevant. But the extent to which I've contributed to combatting general racist or fascist ideas, I'd say I've done my bit. Even if I haven't though, it's no defence of your village idiot level approach.

 

[DrRingDing]

As an individual over the last four years, 3 BNP and 1 EDL

Of course you have

 

[newbie]

why would anyone trust Socialist Unity?

see my point about this whole fandango being based on a single sourced leak, which is being trusted to such an extent it might blow the party out of the water. People quote from it, refer back to it as though it's somehow rigorous. SU is being trusted, in much the same way as Guardian articles.

 

[Idris2002]

see my point about this whole fandango being based on a single sourced leak, which is being trusted to such an extent it might blow the party out of the water. People quote from it, refer back to it as though it's somehow rigorous. SU is being trusted, in much the same way as Guardian articles.

People are also going on their own prior experience and/or knowledge of the SWP as well, though.

 

[redcogs]

see my point about this whole fandango being based on a single sourced leak, which is being trusted to such an extent it might blow the party out of the water. People quote from it, refer back to it as though it's somehow rigorous. SU is being trusted, in much the same way as Guardian articles.

i agree with the general sentiment that SU is little more than an overflowing excrement container, but in relation to the leaked transcript few have denied the accuracy of its content.

 

[two sheds]

see my point about this whole fandango being based on a single sourced leak, which is being trusted to such an extent it might blow the party out of the water. People quote from it, refer back to it as though it's somehow rigorous. SU is being trusted, in much the same way as Guardian articles.

If there were over 400 people at the conference you'd imagine at least one person would have raised an objection.

 

[sihhi]

see my point about this whole fandango being based on a single sourced leak, which is being trusted to such an extent it might blow the party out of the water. People quote from it, refer back to it as though it's somehow rigorous. SU is being trusted, in much the same way as Guardian articles.

There were 400 other people there someone could have challenged its accuracy if it was faulty, CC loyalists certainly would have done so.

It's not a question of trusting Socialist Unity - the same transcript was sent to the Weekly Worker aswell, which you'd have found out had you listened to Jack Conrad's podcast.

Both SU and WW are conduits for the disaffected within the SWP.

Don't really get the reference to the Guardian.

 

[emanymton]

see my point about this whole fandango being based on a single sourced leak, which is being trusted to such an extent it might blow the party out of the water. People quote from it, refer back to it as though it's somehow rigorous. SU is being trusted, in much the same way as Guardian articles.

Others have said similar things but no one has questioned the accuracy of the statement including Charlie Kimber when we emailed Andy Newman to complain about it. Mind you the only source we have for that email is also SU.

 

[The39thStep]

Does the anarchist scene have AGMs?

I think they should have if they are rejecting democratic centralism for being too centralist and not democratic enough and from some of the posts on here there are obviously a few anarchists who have some experience of rule books and constitutions.

ALARM had an inaugural general meeting, not sure if they invited anyone from the press or left blogosphere, with an agenda/election of officials etc. Not sure if they lasted long enough for an AGM.

 

[sihhi]

I think they should have if they are rejecting democratic centralism for being too centralist and not democratic enough and from some of the posts on here there are obviously a few anarchists who have some experience of rule books and constitutions.

I can't disagree.

ALARM had an inaugural general meeting, not sure if they invited anyone from the press or left blogosphere, with an agenda/election of officials etc. Not sure if they lasted long enough for an AGM.

An inaugural meeting is always dominated by the original people who call the meeting, meaning they'll be the elected officials, until the next proper AGM.

I think, in practice, the "anarchist scene" is way too full of different people for them ever to last longer than five minutes in the same room let alone a whole AGM. Westcountry mink liberator types, East London Catholic Worker, Faslane peace camp, Edinburgh Earth First!, Norwich Class War etc.

 

[newbie]

There were 400 other people there someone could have challenged its accuracy if it was faulty, CC loyalists certainly would have done so.

It's not a question of trusting Socialist Unity - the same transcript was sent to the Weekly Worker aswell, which you'd have found out had you listened to Jack Conrad's podcast.

Both SU and WW are conduits for the disaffected within the SWP.

Don't really get the reference to the Guardian.

you're right, I didn't listen.

it's still a single source, howevermany different places publish it. From someone doing what a journalist does, reporting what happened. It's not been challenged, neither has it been expanded upon sfaik.

Surely a plurality of reports, in SW and elsewhere, would have been better?

 

[The39thStep]

I can't disagree.



An inaugural meeting is always dominated by the original people who call the meeting, meaning they'll be the elected officials, until the next proper AGM.

I think, in practice, the "anarchist scene" is way too full of different people for them ever to last longer than five minutes in the same room let alone a whole AGM. Westcountry mink liberator types, East London Catholic Worker, Faslane peace camp, Edinburgh Earth First!, Norwich Class War etc.

Ah Ha !

 

[Sean Delaney]

Yeah that was me called him a wannabe Christ. And yes things have changed cause as the dispute has played itself out more and more people have realised Seymour has a much bigger agenda than the delta case.

This is patently absurd. I'm no fan of Richard 'Victory to the Taliban' Seymour, but his motivations are quite straightfoward. The latest claim on the opposition website that their supporters are facing intimidation and are being shouted down in meetings absolutely fits the SWP modus operandi, which he was happily a part of until he realized 'he don't like it up 'im.'

After all, as Callinicos says, 'if the SWP didn't exist, we would need to invent it.' Shut up or fuck off in other words.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Ah Ha !

fighting the pedestrianisation of Norwich town centre for over 10 years.

 

[DrRingDing]

I liked that Norwich Anarchists always seemed to have the biggest banner. Bless.

 

[SLK]

I can't be as harsh on RS as Bolshie because China is involved, and I did 5.30am Mount Pleasant sales with China (or his then-partner Emma). He knows IS politics. It's not as clear cut as Bolshie makes out in my view.
They've called the 'conference' right though - way too aggressively for me to really believe they want to be in the SWP any more, but right http://internationalsocialismuk.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/when-is-conference-not-conference.html

 

[SLK]

Interesting how they talk about the Platform briefly, and then talk on behalf of the whole faction.

 

[sihhi]

I can't be as harsh on RS as Bolshie because China is involved, and I did 5.30am Mount Pleasant sales with China (or his then-partner Emma). He knows IS politics. It's not as clear cut as Bolshie makes out in my view.

I don't really get the line "He knows IS politics". China Mieville knows IS politics.
Does Seymour somehow not know IS politics (because he is too young) ? Do you know IS politics? Are there people in the SWP who don't know IS politics - the direct party before the SWP - if so that's a massive failure in party education. The IS stopped in 1976 and the SWP took over, you can't explain the SWP without the IS.

 

[SLK]

I don't really get the line "He knows IS politics". China Mieville knows IS politics.
Does Seymour somehow not know IS politics (because he is too young) ? Do you know IS politics? Are there people in the SWP who don't know IS politics - the direct party before the SWP - if so that's a massive failure in party education. The IS stopped in 1976 and the SWP took over, you can't explain the SWP without the IS.

Yes, that was lazy of me. I meant committed to, and did commit to learning before he'd even let us talk about recruiting him. I have no idea on Seymour. I see what bolshie is saying - but Stack and China are two (polar opposite backgrounds!) who would make me listen. As has been pointed out, I'm not rejoining any time soon, so I'm only an interested observer.

As for, "Are there people in the SWP who don't know IS politics?" - I was an active member for 7 years and a member for longer. And yes, "sign them up" regardless became the mode of operation more and more regardless of political disagreements. I'd say even in my day a fair few had never heard of the IS.

 

[Red Cat]

Yes, that was lazy of me. I meant committed to, and did commit to learning before he'd even let us talk about recruiting him. I have no idea on Seymour. I see what bolshie is saying

What is he saying?

 

[Sean Delaney]

Is it just me or does it feel like Leningrad 1941 in London right now? Minus Shostakovich, but the snowy streets, babushkas wrapped up in furs against the unforgiving cold, more snow and the biting wind. Desperation written in the faces of all those queuing for provisions at Waitrose, and internecine warfare between the renegades and the central committee.

No?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

This is patently absurd. I'm no fan of Richard 'Victory to the Taliban' Seymour, but his motivations are quite straightfoward. The latest claim on the opposition website that their supporters are facing intimidation and are being shouted down in meetings absolutely fits the SWP modus operandi, which he was happily a part of until he realized 'he don't like it up 'im.'

After all, as Callinicos says, 'if the SWP didn't exist, we would need to invent it.' Shut up or fuck off in other words.

His motivations are straightforward I agree and I'm not suggesting he has personal leadership ambitions, not something he'd want I suspect as it would carry equal parts responsibility and power, but that doesn't preclude his motivations being about much more than seeking justice over one case. He would no doubt cast it in terms of a return to the democratic, iconoclastic traditions of the earlier IS. But the problem with that is that when people revolt and demand the freedom to speak its usually because they have something to say. And in his case a not even very close reading of his often turgid and thesaurus fuelled prose can only lead to the conclusion that what he has to say is we need a looser, identity politics friendly mash up of revolutionaries and left reformists along the lines of the almighty Syriza. Now I'm as excited as the next centrist about every seat Tsirpas wins from New Democracy in Greece and I haven't got anything against centrism on a moral or aesthetic level - wouldn't have a POUM avatar if I did - but whatever that politics is its not recognisably the IS. Dishonesty on that score is the main real complaint I'd have with RS and the other Platform leaders.

People are shouting at each other in the SWP right now on all sides and that is something people on all sides who want to work together in the future, which I honestly think is the majority of them, need to resist. I've been in enough of these cat fights to know that no side in these things ever has a monopoly on good behaviour when you think all your hard work is being put at risk. If the tone of the FB debates is at all reflective of the face to face confrontations then both the name calling, ad hominem behaviour and the rational, comradely behaviour are features of both wings of the party right now.

 

[Sean Delaney]

COMRADES COME RALLY

 

[Sean Delaney]

AND LET THE LAST FIGHT LET US FACE

 

[SpackleFrog]

Of course you have

Why ask if you won't accept the answer?

 

[Sean Delaney]

THE INTERNATIONALE something something HUMAN RAAAAAICE