SWP expulsions and squabbles

[The39thStep]

hello, I'm a new poster here. I have been following this car crash with a lot of interest over the last few weeks. I was a member of the SWP for a couple of years in the early nineties. Having all this stuff come out over the internet has explained a lot of my experiences as a member. The weird slate system which I was utterly unaware of while a member is amazing for an organisation that is supposed fighting for socialism. To have such an undemocratic and bureaucratic method of selecting leadership regardless of which tradition it claims to be in must be counter productive to creating an revolutionary organsation for change from below.

Does anyone know how other lefty groups or those in the anarchist scene, who are committed to change form below select their leadership?

i think someone covered the SP and despite someone sayng that the membership of anarchsist groups aren't around enough to hold agms , there are some like Solfred, Afed, and I supposet Class war when it was going , who would have to have a system?

 

[two sheds]

Does anyone know how other lefty groups or those in the anarchist scene, who are committed to change form below select their leadership?

I favour the model of an anarcho-syndicalist commune where we take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, or by a two-thirds majority ...

 

[barney_pig]

For class war, at least in its final recent years, leadership consisted of whoever was nearby and willing to do something, did It.
This occasionally had unfortunate consequences, but worked surprising well most of the time.

 

[redcogs]

For class war, at least in its final recent years, leadership consisted of whoever was nearby and willing to do something, did It.
This occasionally had unfortunate consequences, but worked surprising well most of the time.

Can you tell us your favourite unfortunate consequence barney?

 

[Plastic Red]

I can understand having a fairly formal structure but i can't see any argument for not having CC members elected individually. It seems like a recipe for creating a self serving out of touch bureaucracy that doesn't understand new developments, is impatient or actively hostile to debate and simply parrots the same tired decades old arguments regardless of changing circumstances.

 

[redcogs]

I can understand having a fairly formal structure but i can't see any argument for not having CC members elected individually. It seems like a recipe for creating a self serving out of touch bureaucracy that doesn't understand new developments, is impatient or actively hostile to debate and simply parrots the same tired decades old arguments regardless of changing circumstances.

Sounds familiar

 

[barney_pig]

Can you tell us your favourite unfortunate consequence barney?

Suffice to say it involved Swindon

 

[cesare]

Try looking on their websites, 39thStep?

 

[frogwoman]

I can understand having a fairly formal structure but i can't see any argument for not having CC members elected individually. It seems like a recipe for creating a self serving out of touch bureaucracy that doesn't understand new developments, is impatient or actively hostile to debate and simply parrots the same tired decades old arguments regardless of changing circumstances.

The UK SP also has a slate system, although if you ask me I think it should be changed. One of the arguments against changing it which is used by its supporters is it could mean that the leadership election turns into a popularity contest with everyone competing with each other rather than working together for the good of the party

 

[Louis MacNeice]

A slate system, where the current leadership recommends the composition of the future leadership, is essential if the knowledge, skills and experience of the most advanced element of the class are to be remembered, learned from and built on. Opposition to such a system, as it objectively seeks to undermine the most advanced element of the class, is objectively anti-working class and counter revolutionary.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[DotCommunist]

The UK SP also has a slate system, although if you ask me I think it should be changed. One of the arguments against changing it which is used by its supporters is it could mean that the leadership election turns into a popularity contest with everyone competing with each other rather than working together for the good of the party

surely the counter argument is that people end up voting for a slate where they know one or two as good eggs and take it on faith that the rest are OK?

 

[redcogs]

Are counter revolutionaries expected to face a period of self criticism Louis?

Or is there some other, more appropriate, penalty?

 

[imposs1904]

Are counter revolutionaries expected to face a period of self criticism Louis?

Or is there some other, more appropriate, penalty?

i think Louis was joking. I hope he was joking.

 

[frogwoman]

surely the counter argument is that people end up voting for a slate where they know one or two as good eggs and take it on faith that the rest are OK?

well yep exactly. it needs to go if you ask me.

 

[redcogs]

When i was a swp member eons ago i never knew any of the CC candidates personally, apart from 'big' names with profile. Hallas and Cliff stayed at my gaff occasionally (name dropping ), and they would have won my vote by being gifted, Foot also. The rest of the CC were essentially elected by our 'delegate' (i'd argue thats a wrong term really, cos they were not mandated, but decided for themselves).

Pretty unsatisfactory method in some ways, and could certainly be improved upon with a bit of intelligent discussion?

 

[redcogs]

i think Louis was joking. I hope he was joking.

Yes i assumed so

 

[redcogs]

Suffice to say it involved Swindon

Not the Andy Newperson of Socialist Unity Swindon?!

 

[barney_pig]

Not the Andy Newperson of Socialist Unity Swindon?!

No a completely different pain in the arse

 

[Plastic Red]

A slate system, where the current leadership recommends the composition of the future leadership, is essential if the knowledge, skills and experience of the most advanced element of the class are to be remembered, learned from and built on. Opposition to such a system, as it objectively seeks to undermine the most advanced element of the class, is objectively anti-working class and counter revolutionary.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Who decides who has the knowledge and skills? Would someone running a factory just over taken my a workers council make a similar argument? While we're name calling isn't a slate system so utterly abhorent to most peoples democratic instints that they wouldn't touich an organisation run like that with a barge pole therefore dooming the party to obscurity anti-working class and counter revolutionary? Surely not giving the working class a say in who leads the party that purports to be their vanguard is pretty anti-working class?

 

[redcogs]

No a completely different pain in the arse

 

[Louis MacNeice]

surely the counter argument is that people end up voting for a slate where they know one or two as good eggs and take it on faith that the rest are OK?

The objectively anti-working class, counter revolutionary elements have obviously never really understood the tradition they sometimes claim to stand within; for the health of class and party they must either leave or be expelled.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[two sheds]

Who decides who has the knowledge and skills?

The current leadership of course

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Who decides who has the knowledge and skills?

Who is best placed?

Surely it is the most advanced element of the class, that has come together over decades of struggle in the leadership of the party; or do you think the most conscious, articulate and skillful fighters are to be found outside the ranks of the party?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[belboid]

The argument for the CC system is that it will mean people other than the famous bods or those from big districts get elected, and that it can allow for a balanced team that fairly represents the trains of thought within the party to be represented upon it.

Of course the problem with that is fairly obvious - that it will work only if the outgoing CC choose to pick the 'right' team. In effect whoever they pick IS the right team, like it or not.

It is true that there is nothing inherent in direct elections that would mean a fairer share of CC places for minorities, a well organised majority could quite easily carve out all the votes necessary to win the top places. And it is true that such individual systems will tend to favour established 'stars' or those from big places, from whence they can garner enough votes to outpoll those in backwaters. But neither of those points are enough in the slate syatems favour to outweigh the general benefits of doing away with it.

 

[Plastic Red]

The UK SP also has a slate system, although if you ask me I think it should be changed. One of the arguments against changing it which is used by its supporters is it could mean that the leadership election turns into a popularity contest with everyone competing with each other rather than working together for the good of the party

Surely you have to trust in the judgement of the party members?

 

[Plastic Red]

Who is best placed?

Surely it is the most advanced element of the class, that has come together over decades of struggle in the leadership of the party; or do you think the most conscious, articulate and skillful fighters are to be found outside the ranks of the party?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

Often they probably are outside the ranks of the party. Again how do you decide who the "most advanced elements of the class" are? It's not self evident to me and at the moment it doesn't seem to be the SWP CC.

 

[frogwoman]

It is a bit of an un-marxist idea isn't it, the idea that some people are more "advanced" than others.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm more advanced than you lot though if we're being honest about it.

 

[mk12]

The SWP CC aren't even part of the class, let alone the advanced element of it.

 

[DotCommunist]

my old man said follow the van etc