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SWP expulsions and squabbles

So fash are idiots and can only deal with the 'nonces' argument

All the fash i know are either lacking knowledge and/or don't have the greatest cognitive abilities. And like I've previously said I usually take the line that the fash are anti working class.

Now what you've failed to understand in your grandstanding is that I used the nonce thing as a brickbat in a dingdong. You're filling in the gaps as you please so you can have rant and to feel self righteous.
 
I see, terribly sorry. I've misrepresented your position entirely. It's because they think the edl are a working class org that you have to call them nonces because nonces can't be working class.
Now I get it.

So, SpackleFrog how many people have your efforts help persuade people to leave far right orgs?
 
There is a change, and that change is that the CC of the SWP have woken up and begun to smell the burning toast. Instead of just ignoring the challenge they have recognised it is there. They have started to respond further than Calinicos's written piece that studiously ignored the main issues. They are now on Plan B: hold a pre-emptive special conference on their own terms which they hope or plan to pull people back around a carefully re-presented party line. The results of this to be final and agreed by all. I wish them luck with that.
The other change in the thread is that instead of being hi-jacked by representatives of other non SWP sects giving their own history and squabbles going back to the beginning of the last century, is that it is being taken over by discussions about unconnected right-wing groups with no reference to the SWP. That's Urban75 I guess.
 
All the fash i know are either lacking knowledge and/or don't have the greatest cognitive abilities. And like I've previously said I usually take the line that the fash are anti working class.

Now what you've failed to understand in your grandstanding is that I used the nonce thing as a brickbat in a dingdong. You're filling in the gaps as you please so you can have rant and to feel self righteous.

Good you've realised that your 'nonce brickbat' was a crock of shite even in a ding dong; the sound of you rowing back is music to my ears.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. It's not my experience that fash are uniformly uniformed and/or stupid; I'd suggest it's not a good place to start from even in a ding dong ring ring.
 
With respect to the SWP Special Conference I have only just noticed this gem from a leaked document:
Support the CC statement: A group of comrades who back the CC statement are collecting names in support. They cannot form a faction because they support the party’s policies! To add your name email xxx.xx

I was amused about the aside concerning the fact that they cannot form a faction.
 
With respect to the SWP Special Conference I have only just noticed this gem from a leaked document:


I was amused about the aside concerning the fact that they cannot form a faction.
If that is from my post, then to be honest that line was the reason I posted it
 
There is a change, and that change is that the CC of the SWP have woken up and begun to smell the burning toast. Instead of just ignoring the challenge they have recognised it is there. They have started to respond further than Calinicos's written piece that studiously ignored the main issues. They are now on Plan B: hold a pre-emptive special conference on their own terms which they hope or plan to pull people back around a carefully re-presented party line. The results of this to be final and agreed by all. I wish them luck with that.

I strongly suspect the individuals who compose the self-recruiting permanent faction who have run the IS/SWP pretty much since its formation in Cliff's front room, are stuck now in the swamp created by their own collective authoritarian mindset. The people on the CC apparently believe that they , like Cliff certainly did himself, are in direct touch with the "dialectic of the inner dynamic of history" - or at least "channelling lenin" , a bit like the Pope and his supposed direct line to God (though in this case at least God has apparently just told Benedict to "fuck off now before all that abuse cover up stuff overwhelms you and you're too far gone to do much more than dribble incoherently in your cups "). This being the case (known in Far Left politics as "Cliff and Gerry egomania disease") how can they be "wrong" about organisational structures, democratic procedures, political tactics, rape tribunals, etc ? The "problem" (as also always claimed by the Blairites when the electorate gave them a kicking) must simply be one of "poor presentation". So, the solution is to deviously and bullyingly try to "manage" the presentation problems, and of course GET RID of those few deviants who have the temerity to question the way the IS/SWP has always been run. It's quite obviously a sad rerun of the last crazed few years in the bunker of the leadership clacque of the WRP. It'll take a few years, but the SWP is toast -- doomed to a slow death by a thousand desertions and expulsions, until only a handful of very old politicos will be left raging at the world alongside their sacred death mask of Cliff.

As an aside , like a lot of old ex SWP expellees I've had a certain "car crash voyeur" fascination with the crisis as it has unfolded. There's been a lot of interesting, and even politically insightful stuff been generated by the SWP's current plight across the blogosphere. However in case we think that the now inevitable collapse of the SWP in the longer term will in itself sort out all the lunacy lurking on the Far left, think again.For instance I've been struck by the high level of SWP leaks to the "Socialist Unity" website, and the often interesting discussions on same. I've also been surprised at the quite extraordinary crap background politics of some of the leading lights behind that site. "Andy" himself , whilst pontificating pompously about the SWP's lack of internal democracy, appears to be a dedicated apologist for both stalinism ( the "socialist states" )AND the Catholic Church hierarchy ! His recent blog on the Pope's resignation must make any radical socialist reach for the sick bag. Ironically much of the political theory of the SWP is, in comparison, many light years MORE PROGRESSIVE than this bonkers stuff. So the eventual disappearance of the SWP wont in itself guarantee that Left politics in the UK wont continue to be dominated by politicos fundamentally attached to authoritarian belief systems and theories that will continue to isolate us from the mass of ordinary sane working class people.
 
I strongly suspect the individuals who compose the self-recruiting permanent faction who have run the IS/SWP pretty much since its formation in Cliff's front room, are stuck now in the swamp created by their own collective authoritarian mindset. The people on the CC apparently believe that they , like Cliff certainly did himself, are in direct touch with the "dialectic of the inner dynamic of history" - or at least "channelling lenin" , a bit like the Pope and his supposed direct line to God (though in this case at least God has apparently just told Benedict to "fuck off now before all that abuse cover up stuff overwhelms you and you're too far gone to do much more than dribble incoherently in your cups "). This being the case (known in Far Left politics as "Cliff and Gerry egomania disease") how can they be "wrong" about organisational structures, democratic procedures, political tactics, rape tribunals, etc ? The "problem" (as also always claimed by the Blairites when the electorate gave them a kicking) must simply be one of "poor presentation". So, the solution is to deviously and bullyingly try to "manage" the presentation problems, and of course GET RID of those few deviants who have the temerity to question the way the IS/SWP has always been run. It's quite obviously a sad rerun of the last crazed few years in the bunker of the leadership clacque of the WRP. It'll take a few years, but the SWP is toast -- doomed to a slow death by a thousand desertions and expulsions, until only a handful of very old politicos will be left raging at the world alongside their sacred death mask of Cliff.

As an aside , like a lot of old ex SWP expellees I've had a certain "car crash voyeur" fascination with the crisis as it has unfolded. There's been a lot of interesting, and even politically insightful stuff been generated by the SWP's current plight across the blogosphere. However in case we think that the now inevitable collapse of the SWP in the longer term will in itself sort out all the lunacy lurking on the Far left, think again.For instance I've been struck by the high level of SWP leaks to the "Socialist Unity" website, and the often interesting discussions on same. I've also been surprised at the quite extraordinary crap background politics of some of the leading lights behind that site. "Andy" himself , whilst pontificating pompously about the SWP's lack of internal democracy, appears to be a dedicated apologist for both stalinism ( the "socialist states" )AND the Catholic Church hierarchy ! His recent blog on the Pope's resignation must make any radical socialist reach for the sick bag. Ironically much of the political theory of the SWP is, in comparison, many light years MORE PROGRESSIVE than this bonkers stuff. So the eventual disappearance of the SWP wont in itself guarantee that Left politics in the UK wont continue to be dominated by politicos fundamentally attached to authoritarian belief systems and theories that will continue to isolate us from the mass of ordinary sane working class people.
Newman is proof positive that the act of leaving the SWP is not necessarily a positive act.
At least PD argues for a workers bomb, not a Chinese aircraft carrier
 
Callinicos's belief that the swp is strong enough to ride this out is visibly absurd. The widespread orchestrated intimidation of the oppo's indicate an organisation at breaking point, resorting to internal thuggery to restore order. It is fucking shameful, but it is a very long standing facet of the party's culture, one that should never have been allowed to develop. Bullying is an illegitimate response to political differences that cannot fail to alienate hundreds of good people with the possibility is that they will all be lost from the struggle for justice and humanity, maybe permanently.

It is depressing that the short sighted inflexibility and blind stupidity of a few at the top has contaminated the swp so thoroughly, and although i've not personally been involved for two decades, these ongoing and disastrous events create anger and sadness in equal measure.
 
Callinicos's belief that the swp is strong enough to ride this out is absurd.
Well, his first calculation is that the CC can ride out the March conference. Then ride out the resignations and splits. Then the loss of the student groups. Then having done that, rebuild out of 'the next big thing'. It's a cynical and dishonest (with regard to the handling of the rape accusation) strategy. But it's not an absurd one. As an outsider who wants to see a renewed and less 'top-down' style SWP I'm worried that it might succeed. Having said that, I do see that such a 'success' will be so costly that the SWP would then be unlikely to play much of a role in a future revolution.
 
Well, his first calculation is that the CC can ride out the March conference. Then ride out the resignations and splits. Then the loss of the student groups. Then having done that, rebuild out of 'the next big thing'. It's a cynical and dishonest (with regard to the handling of the rape accusation) strategy. But it's not an absurd one. As an outsider who wants to see a renewed and less 'top-down' style SWP I'm worried that it might succeed. Having said that, I do see that such a 'success' will be so costly that the SWP would then be unlikely to play much of a role in a future revolution.

It seems to me that Stack has the right idea in terms of minimising damage, otherwise I can't see how they can survive in any meaningful way. I think if I were a member that would be the approach that may convince me to remain. Maybe.

But there is so much unthought about feeling in the party I'm not sure the defences can be dropped that would allow this to happen.
 
Callinicos's belief that the swp is strong enough to ride this out is visibly absurd. The widespread orchestrated intimidation of the oppo's indicate an organisation at breaking point, resorting to internal thuggery to restore order. It is fucking shameful, but it is a very long standing facet of the party's culture, one that should never have been allowed to develop. Bullying is an illegitimate response to political differences that cannot fail to alienate hundreds of good people with the possibility is that they will all be lost from the struggle for justice and humanity, maybe permanently.
Hang on is it a very long standing facet of the party's culture or does it indicate an organisation at breaking point?! You need to make up which insult to hurl at them, either they've always been bullies or they're about to fall apart and your proof is the bullying.
 
Somebody. Some pages back. It's not really important. It's just that the change in how Seymour etc is being perceived is very noticeable on coming back to this thread after a long gap.
Yeah that was me called him a wannabe Christ. And yes things have changed cause as the dispute has played itself out more and more people have realised Seymour has a much bigger agenda than the delta case.
 
The SWP has no problems about secrecy, it is publicity that they fear, at least when it comes to their internal workings.
I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would be in a political party that excludes journalists from its annual conference. One seeking to build a mass membership, anyway.

The transcript was single source leaked and is relied upon: it's entirely possible a different picture could have emerged if the debate had been properly reported. Anyway, the mere anticipation of journalist scrutiny would have led to a different disputes process, this mess can only have happened because no-one stopped to wonder what the wider party & public would make of it because they never expected us to hear of it. As if, in the internet age..

Comrades, we aim to transform the lives of millions of people but we don't want them to know what we're up to.

It's so obviously a winning strategy, it's bound to come into its own at some point.
 
I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would be in a political party that excludes journalists from its annual conference. One seeking to build a mass membership, anyway.

If you've ever asked a SWPer it's because they discuss illegal, dangerous revolutionary things, apparently.
 
yes, I would trust the mainstream press to properly report something like this.

Of course they don't and wouldn't with something to them as juicy as this.

But it's worth noting that the massively derided "Stalinists" in the Communist Parties on the continent in the early 1970s even before official Euro-Communism were inviting accredited (people with a history of not lying, making stuff up) journalists to cover its annual conferences and votes.

Do members of fellow Trotksyist parties attend each other's annual conventions as observers?
I don't know the answer but I suspect it is no.
 
Of course they don't and wouldn't with something to them as juicy as this.

But it's worth noting that the massively derided "Stalinists" in the Communist Parties on the continent in the early 1970s even before official Euro-Communism were inviting accredited (people with a history of not lying, making stuff up) journalists to cover its annual conferences and votes.

Do members of fellow Trotksyist parties attend each other's annual conventions as observers?
I don't know the answer but I suspect it is no.
Certainly back in the early eighties the fourth had journalists and invited delegations from other organisations attending world and national conferences. I think that even the notoriously secretive Lutte Ouvriere did this.
 
Hang on is it a very long standing facet of the party's culture or does it indicate an organisation at breaking point?! You need to make up which insult to hurl at them, either they've always been bullies or they're about to fall apart and your proof is the bullying.

What you on about bolshie'? The ability of the SWP to use internal intimidation as a 'solution' to political dissent will be recognised by any current (or previous) long term member. Most often in the past it has been relatively small scale, involving individuals/ branches/districts etc, but it is a well rehearsed aspect of an authoritarian culture that has developed over decades.

Today intimidatory bullying is been utilised by the CC as a substitute for proper discussion precisely because they fear the consequences of an open and far reaching debate - in other words, because they have judged that the groundswell of dissent is escalating beyond that which they can control by rational argument.

Its easy to follow provided you don't have your head up your arse.
 
Certainly back in the early eighties the fourth had journalists and invited delegations from other organisations attending world and national conferences. I think that even the notoriously secretive Lutte Ouvriere did this.

That's my point. It was more open before.

The SSP or the Socialist Alliance no problems, probably be the same for a future planned Syriza formation (if the ex-Workers Power and Richard Seymourists get their way).

But the individual parties - Hannah Sell being invited to SWP conference. Alex Callinicos invited to SP conference - I don't see it happening - that's my outsider's view.
 
Certainly back in the early eighties the fourth had journalists and invited delegations from other organisations attending world and national conferences. I think that even the notoriously secretive Lutte Ouvriere did this.

What even the control commission/disciplinary/finance bits?
 
yes, I would trust the mainstream press to properly report something like this.
Unless it's as juicy as the last one no MSM editor will trouble their readers with an account, but there's loads of left press and blogs.

Why on earth would anyone trust the mainstream press?
 
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