SWP expulsions and squabbles

[mk12]

Revolutionarize the Vatican

For a People's Pope!

 

[DotCommunist]

Are Vegans allowed in the Vedge Wedge? I only ask cos Veganism is tantamount to the rankest bourgeois deviationism.

You'd have to take this issue up with the wedgists themselves comrade, I'm currently eating horseburger and struggling with the complexity of Chuckleism. To me, but also to you.

 

[SpackleFrog]

You'd have to take this issue up with the wedgists themselves comrade, I'm currently eating horseburger and struggling with the complexity of Chuckleism. To me, but also to you.

And to you also, Comrade, thanks for the tip, I shall begin consumation of anti-Vegan entryist work immediately.

 

[sihhi]

Interestingly, the CPGB don't tackle the fact that the F.R.F.I./RCG have not tackled the SWP split at all.

Instead FRFI's apparoach is based around Socialist Worker's failures in reporting on Venezuela - this matters for the very good reason that there are no ISO groups in Venezuela - hence any position the SWP position took would be largely irrelevant.

"The position of the SWP on the Bolivarian Revolution is thoroughly reactionary and chauvinist. It has no concept of a real struggle for socialism with all its problems and vicissitudes: instead it serves up a cocktail of idealist schema laced with borrowings from the imperialist media. Its position on the Labour Party is based on the same adaptation to imperialism. We have argued for a long time that it is impossible to remain a socialist and be a member of the Labour Party. Now we have to ask: how is it possible to be a socialist and remain in the SWP?"

http://www.revolutionarycommunist.o...832-swp-vultures-circle-bolivarian-revolution

 

[The39thStep]

Interestingly, the CPGB don't tackle the fact that the F.R.F.I./RCG have not tackled the SWP split at all.

Instead FRFI's apparoach is based around Socialist Worker's failures in reporting on Venezuela - this matters for the very good reason that there are no ISO groups in Venezuela - hence any position the SWP position took would be largely irrelevant.

"The position of the SWP on the Bolivarian Revolution is thoroughly reactionary and chauvinist. It has no concept of a real struggle for socialism with all its problems and vicissitudes: instead it serves up a cocktail of idealist schema laced with borrowings from the imperialist media. Its position on the Labour Party is based on the same adaptation to imperialism. We have argued for a long time that it is impossible to remain a socialist and be a member of the Labour Party. Now we have to ask: how is it possible to be a socialist and remain in the SWP?"

http://www.revolutionarycommunist.o...832-swp-vultures-circle-bolivarian-revolution

 

[The39thStep]

Both Gonzales and Choomarah getting it in the neck there. What is FRFI's line on the AMM?

 

[sihhi]

Both Gonzales and Choomarah getting it in the neck there. What is FRFI's line on the AMM?

Good point, I don't know. What's CPGB's line on the lack of a FRFI line on the AMM?

 

[The39thStep]

Probably a failure to understand proper Leninism, most things come down to that or lack of a programme.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yeah, you'd have to give it to Stack, he is trying to (probably too late) to get a bit of common sense in here. If he succeeds the 'platform' will find itself out on a limb a bit.

I always had a fair bit of time for Stack - definitely one of the more likeable senior members of the SWP. And as a speaker he is an incredible sight to behold - despite having only one arm he is able to do even more impressive gestures than that German bloke from the CWI by sort of swinging his sleeve around.

 

[sihhi]

Probably a failure to understand proper Leninism, most things come down to that or lack of a programme.

I'm thinking of sending this is in to the Weekly Worker this week:

Dear editors,

As a long-time donator to your website and keen follower of developments in the programme and British socialism more generally, I was puzzled by your article 'Left press and the SWP the dog that didn’t bark' subtitled 'The silence of significant sections of the left on the Socialist Workers Party crisis is a symptom of sectarianism' by Paul Demarty. I entirely agree with the broad thrust of Demarty's article. However I believe there was an element of sectarianism in seeking to concentrate only on the silence of the SP and semi-Stalinist CPB on the SWP crisis. The lack of response by such groups as the RCG and RDG should have been covered to remain more fully judicious in a proletarian anti-sectarian anti-favourist sense.

Yours,
Barry Main

 

[The39thStep]

I'm thinking of sending this is in to the Weekly Worker this week:

Dear editors,

As a long-time donator to your website and keen follower of developments in the programme and British socialism more generally, I was puzzled by your article 'Left press and the SWP the dog that didn’t bark' subtitled 'The silence of significant sections of the left on the Socialist Workers Party crisis is a symptom of sectarianism' by Paul Demarty. I entirely agree with the broad thrust of Demarty's article. However I believe there was an element of sectarianism in seeking to concentrate only on the silence of the SP and semi-Stalinist CPB on the SWP crisis. The lack of response by such groups as the RCG and RDG should have been covered to remain more fully judicious in a proletarian anti-sectarian anti-favourist sense.

Yours,
Barry Main

Get it banged off.

 

[sihhi]

Get it banged off.

but it needs a real ending to increase credibility

on the lines of:

'All Trotskyists - those in small organisations aswell the big four (SWP, SP, CPB, Workers' Power) need the careful analysis and scrutiny your paper provides. If we are ever to unite on the basis of the programme and the real long-term interests of the working-class, no real Trotskyist should be in a position where they can consider themselves left out.'

If anyone can improve on this...

 

[Random]

but it needs a real ending to increase credibility

on the lines of:

'All Trotskyists - those in small organisations aswell the big four (SWP, SP, CPB, Workers' Power) need the careful analysis and scrutiny your paper provides. If we are ever to unite on the basis of the programme and the real long-term interests of the working-class, no real Trotskyist should be in a position where they can consider themselves left out.'

If anyone can improve on this...

Leninists, or Communists, instead of trotskyists, as iirc the FRIFI-RDG don't consider themselves trotskyists any more

 

[Sasaferrato]

There's been some discussion of the latest SWP rows and expulsions over on the Callinicos / Penny thread, but, it tended to get buried under mountains of hate directed at the "left" commentariat. So here's a thread to discuss expulsions and squabbles in one of Britain's main left wing groups.

The Weekly Worker (as always, caution advised) has an account of four people getting the boot in the run up to SWP conference. There's an amusingly Kafkaesque edge to it too. They were expelled for factionalism, seemingly as a result of facebook messages. But this happened during the "pre-conference period", where for a few months a year, SWP members are supposed by allowed to form factions. The problem is though that to gain factional rights, you need 30 signatories... but to gather those 30 signatories you have to engage in what the Central Committee considers "factionalism". Which is an expellable offence.

So two of the people who wrote critical articles in the pre-conference bulletins and a couple of others were unceremoniously ejected.

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/943/swp-expelled-before-conference-begins

They sound like a bunch of totalitarian cunts. Quite amusing really, as they have about as much influence in the nation as my cat.

 

[sihhi]

Leninists, or Communists, instead of trotskyists, as iirc the FRIFI-RDG don't consider themselves trotskyists any more

Are you sure?
RDG are the Scottish repulicans, RCG are the Yaaffeists

 

[The39thStep]

but it needs a real ending to increase credibility

on the lines of:

'All Trotskyists - those in small organisations aswell the big four (SWP, SP, CPB, Workers' Power) need the careful analysis and scrutiny your paper provides. If we are ever to unite on the basis of the programme and the real long-term interests of the working-class, no real Trotskyist should be in a position where they can consider themselves left out.'

If anyone can improve on this...

They will think you are taking the piss with that additional ending.

Perhaps something like :' Although their audience is small the lack of response by groups such as the RDG and RCG should not go uncovered by the Weekly Worker. There may be individuals who are mistakenly attracted to such grouplets who churn out both abstentionsim and adventurism in contrast for the need for analysis and political intervention which the Weekly Worker should strive for'.?

 

[sihhi]

They will think you are taking the piss with that additional ending.

Perhaps something like :' Although their audience is small the lack of response by groups such as the RDG and RCG should not go uncovered by the Weekly Worker. There may be individuals who are mistakenly attracted to such grouplets who churn out both abstentionsim and adventurism in contrast for the need for analysis and political intervention which the Weekly Worker should strive for'.?

Yes it's too much of a slap in the face for the CPGB who aren't big enough to be in the gang of four of trotskyist groups
Yours is really good, although they might think it too sucky when combined with the start 'As a long-time donator to your website and keen follower of developments in the programme'

Perhaps something along the lives of 'have become an avid reader of the Weekly Worker due to Chris Knight's anthropological writings, and ditch any mention of "the programme"?

 

[barney_pig]

I have blood relations on my shelf #unreadbooks

 

[two sheds]

They sound like a bunch of totalitarian cunts.

Yep, almost as bad as your lot, bunch of fucking criminals that *they* are.

 

[KeeperofDragons]

I always had a fair bit of time for Stack - definitely one of the more likeable senior members of the SWP. And as a speaker he is an incredible sight to behold - despite having only one arm he is able to do even more impressive gestures than that German bloke from the CWI by sort of swinging his sleeve around.

I was a marxism one year practicing my indoor photography and didn't get a single non blurry pic of him!

 

[TremulousTetra]

I used the term "robo-swappie". My wee homage to Donald Rooum's wildcat cartoons

(For some reason I could only find a German translation of the image.)

Anyway, I don't think the terms 'filth' and 'robo-swappie' are comparable. Maybe you're even more of a quaker than me?

the clue is in your own words. Are robots humans? You were the one crying about dehumanising. I just pointed out the hypocrisy of such a claim when one refers to people as robots etc.

To me people who describe SWP members in such a way are displaying the typical cult /sectarian trait, who would rather vilify and dehumanise the opponent because they are too lazy/ ignorant/ Machiavellian to take on the arguments..

 

[TremulousTetra]

You think Stack was thinking of the victim when he used that term? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

of course you can disagree.

What was his intention, and what is your evidence?

 

[SpackleFrog]

I always had a fair bit of time for Stack - definitely one of the more likeable senior members of the SWP. And as a speaker he is an incredible sight to behold - despite having only one arm he is able to do even more impressive gestures than that German bloke from the CWI by sort of swinging his sleeve around.

Ha! Gonna see if I can find some youtube footage now-they must be pretty good hand/sleeve gestures. Stefan has mad revolutionary gesturing skills.

 

[SpineyNorman]

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Did well on TV after the Poll Tax riot too. Top man which is why I'm glad the cc has listened to people of his calibre enough to do something other than repeat case is closed ad infinitum.

But to return to Belboids reasonable point a page ago about whether Stack is right to want an extended debate on the political differences after the dc issue is resolved, I think it comes down to how likely people think it is that they can win each other over. I'm not close enough to be able to tell how deep the divisions are and how entrenched people are but from a distance it does honestly seem that many of the platform lot do indeed know what the arguments of the old guard are about feminism etc and just don't accept them. At some point you have to make a call on what's to be gained from continued debate vs drawing a line and letting people decide which side they are on.

 

[Oisin123]

So Pat Stack spends a large part of his letter explaining why the CC are wrong to be negative about the new wave of feminism, and bolshieboy reads this as Stack being with the CC against the platform on this issue.

 

[The39thStep]

Yes it's too much of a slap in the face for the CPGB who aren't big enough to be in the gang of four of trotskyist groups
Yours is really good, although they might think it too sucky when combined with the start 'As a long-time donator to your website and keen follower of developments in the programme'

Perhaps something along the lives of 'have become an avid reader of the Weekly Worker due to Chris Knight's anthropological writings, and ditch any mention of "the programme"?

I think you need this chap Jonny Favourite to pen it :

Revo and WP
One would have hoped that the acrimonious split between Workers Power and Permanent Revolution would not have damaged those who supported neither side but who want a truly independent revolutionary youth movement.

It was expected that, since Workers Power control the Revo site, the supporters of Permanent Revolution would have been culled, but those of us who defended the independence of Revo from Workers Power have recently been under attack ourselves in a way that makes the Socialist Workers Party look like the birthplace of democratic faction rights.

After calling for a bill of rights to protect posters from an almost Cannonite fixation with discipline, several of us have been banned and others warned that they will follow. As a school student who set up a Stop the War group in my college - despite there being a heavy Territorial Army presence - and is involved in campaigning for youth facilities and a skateboard park in my area, I would have thought that struggle unites. Instead it seems that if you are active and want to build a genuine, independent, socialist youth group you are not allowed to use the website of the independent socialist youth group called Revo.

Suffice to say that we have now resigned and will be holding talks with a view to either establishing ourselves as an external faction of Revo or start a campaign for a new independent youth movement.

Johnny Favorite
email

On 13/03/07, office@cpgb.org.uk <office@cpgb.org.uk> wrote:
Johnny

Thanks for your letter. I have passed it on to the Weekly Worker editor and
hopefully it will feature in the next issue of the paper.

A small point. You should think a little more dynamically than your current
set of perspectives. Being an external faction of the miniscule and -
frankly - increasingly eccentric Revo/Workers Power sect is a waste of your
time. Then, why set up an 'independent' revolutionary youth group? What
distinctive politics would justify the creation of yet another grouplet on
the left - this proliferation of tiny, utterly ineffective groups
discredits the Marxist in the eyes of advanced workers. Quite rightly, too.
In what way - other than organisationally - would it be 'independent'?

Whatever path you choose at the end of the day, I wish you well and your
comrades well.

With communist greetings

Mark Fischer

Dear Mark;​

​

Thank you for your reply and advice which is most welcome. I too have had some doubts about where next as this has been a demoralising affair and has brought the worst out of some of the ex comrades in the '5th International'.You are right about describing them as 'increasing;ly eccentric' .You can imagine our surprise and dismay that we received news of our expulsion and banning by text message. Over the next weeks we will be discussing which way forward and I was encouraged to read in your paper about the Sheffield Communist students .​

​

I am sure that there are quite a few youth out there who like us feel betrayed and hurt by our experience with the so called 'revolutionary' left following radicalisation against the war. Do you feel that conference is a good idea later in the year?​

Johnny​

​

A conference can be a good idea for a new organisation providing sufficient​

work of clarification has been undertaken beforehand. Of course, you can​

never tell. Lenin and the Russian party expended huge energy in theoretical​

work prior to the 1903 congress - only to split when it rolled around.​

​

So, personally, I would not rush to try and commit to a full conference​

just yet. You need to prepare it and get your ideas straight. Some thought​

and education may be the order of the day, in other words. Obviously, up to​

you and keep us informed one way or another. I'm sure Communist Students​

would attend.​

​

I have put you on the mailing list to recieve our e-bulletin Notes for​

Action, by the way. Just to keep you up to speed with the stuff we are up​

to.​

​

And I meant to ask - what part of the country are you are your comrades​

active in?​

​

​

With communist greetings​

​

Mark Fischer​

 

[discokermit]

So Pat Stack spends a large part of his letter explaining why the CC are wrong to be negative about the new wave of feminism, and bolshieboy reads this as Stack being with the CC against the platform on this issue.

to be fair, every post of his is like that now. i only read them for comedy value.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Quite thevreverse, I was questioning whether he was right Oisin, I know he doesn't share their view of how to deal with the debate. Clear enough that he does think some of the platform have it wrong though.

 

[discokermit]

I think you need this chap Jonny Favourite to pen it :

that is a fucking cool name.