SWP expulsions and squabbles

[redcogs]

JM has missed his chance to be the reasonable peace-maker here through having firing his salvo too early. Good. He's shown people like me, who had a lot of respect for him, where he actually stands when the pressure is on. And I think the centre of gravity of the eventual settlement will be a good bit to the 'left' (so to speak) of where he stands.

i've enjoyed his blog, but i fear you may be correct. But equally, Stack reserved his powder until it became safe to appeal over the heads of the CC to the rank and file, some time after Moly prepared the ground with his disreputable intervention. How long before other prominents start doing similarly?

 

[TremulousTetra]

I think it's a dodgy word to use, tbh. Even if I was Robo-Swappie, I'd feel uncomfortable with the use of that word.

how would you describe the tabloid media reporting upon such circumstances AGAINST the wishes of the 'victim'?

 

[imposs1904]

whereas "trotbot" is the refuge of those who,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,?

I used the term "robo-swappie". My wee homage to Donald Rooum's wildcat cartoons

(For some reason I could only find a German translation of the image.)

Anyway, I don't think the terms 'filth' and 'robo-swappie' are comparable. Maybe you're even more of a quaker than me?

 

[imposs1904]

how would you describe the tabloid media reporting upon such circumstances AGAINST the wishes of the 'victim'?

You think Stack was thinking of the victim when he used that term? We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Pat Stack's letter seemed eminently reasonable to me. The CC has got to listen to someone of his standing who is well respected in the party by anyone who knew him from his articles on the back of the paper. His reference to the bloggers and outsiders to the party as 'filth' is no big issue to me. It expresses his anger that an embarrassing tactical mistake by the leaders has become publicised via the internet. If the CC and its allies don't do something to change their approach and show awareness that for younger members the internet is their location of debate, then the tactical mistake will prove to be a strategic one. This is happening in a time when the voice of the left is desperately needed under the renewed onslaught of capitalist control of politics.

 

[Oisin123]

A quick test of your understanding of party and class:

1. Where do the best initiatives of the revolutionary party come from?
A) The head of John Rees. B) The CC. C) The generalised experience of the most combative workers.

2. How does a revolutionary party correct its mistakes?
A) John Rees never makes mistakes. B) A CC reshuffle. C) By listening to militant workers beyond the party.

3. What is the correct attitude of the revolutionary party towards its leaders?
A) Worshipful. B) Deferential if they are on the way up, cold if they are on the way out. C) Organised distrust.

Score A=1, B=3, C=5

3pts. You are a member of Counterfire
5-13pts. You are bolshieboy or a member of the SWP CC
15pts. Congratulations. You are the true heir of Lenin.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It's a bit odd that Counterfire didn't replicate the SWP's structures.

 

[emanymton]

bolshieboy will be along in a minute to explain that it is because they rejected democratic centralism and the centrality of the working class. And he might have a point

 

[The39thStep]

It's a bit odd that Counterfire didn't replicate the SWP's structures.

Not sure you can run a cafe on democratic centralist lines, especially if Dr Ring Ring is at the same time organising the staff

 

[bolshiebhoy]

bolshieboy will be along in a minute to explain that it is because they rejected democratic centralism and the centrality of the working class. And he might have a point

Thank you kindly!

 

[two sheds]

Not sure you can run a cafe on democratic centralist lines, especially if Dr Ring Ring at the same time organising the staff

Tut you all put your order in and the dish with the most orders is what everybody gets.

 

[Oisin123]

Tut you all put your order in and the dish with the most orders is what everybody gets.

But what if the vegetarians demand permanent faction rights?

 

[DrRingDing]

Tut you all put your order in and the dish with the most orders is what everybody gets.

No. The CC will give you the choice of borscht and sprouts or...well nowt else.

 

[two sheds]

But what if the vegetarians demand permanent faction rights?

They get bloody sausages like the rest of us

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Lot of discussion around Stacks notion of two years of debate around dem cen and feminism like what they had when he was a kid. So basically his line is look these youngsters weren't around in the 70's and 80's and you need to have the debates with them all over again. The thing is where does patient discussion and education end and permanent factionalising start? Does a party really have to revisit all of its traumatic learning debates every generation? Or does it not just need to be better at explaining its own traditions to new recruits rather than dumbing down? If your ideas are worth defending Pat aren't they worth defending here and now, not after two years of soul searching? Which is a different subject by the way from the necessity to apply those ideas creatively to a changing world. To apply them and develop them you first have to agree with the first principles and clearly (as Stack himself implies) some of those around Seymour don't.

 

[sihhi]

i am the darkside of the internet..

Dark side of the internet I am in you.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

PH criticising the prof is still the biggest shock of this thing for me. Tells me all I need to know about how this will ultimately play out at the special conf.

Sorry BB but that is very sad; there are much greater shocks in the treatment of W than in a gentle rebuke between leading lights.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[Oisin123]

Lot of discussion around Stacks notion of two years of debate around dem cen and feminism like what they had when he was a kid... If your ideas are worth defending Pat aren't they worth defending here and now, not after two years of soul searching?

The usefulness of having bolshieboy active here is that we get a direct line to CC loyalist thinking. At first they were rattled, now they are rallying. Go ahead then, spit on his peace offering. And like every unbending authority in the face of mutiny, you'll break. And it won't be the compromise members making the running when that happens.

 

[manny-p]

Dark side of the internet I am in you.

You two lovers?

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Lot of discussion around Stacks notion of two years of debate around dem cen and feminism like what they had when he was a kid. So basically his line is look these youngsters weren't around in the 70's and 80's and you need to have the debates with them all over again. The thing is where does patient discussion and education end and permanent factionalising start? Does a party really have to revisit all of its traumatic learning debates every generation? Or does it not just need to be better at explaining its own traditions to new recruits rather than dumbing down? If your ideas are worth defending Pat aren't they worth defending here and now, not after two years of soul searching? Which is a different subject by the way from the necessity to apply those ideas creatively to a changing world. To apply them and develop them you first have to agree with the first principles and clearly (as Stack himself implies) some of those around Seymour don't.

Sometimes you do need to go over some ground again, the fight is always there & we need to guard against claw back of rights gained previously, judging by the crap that's coming up yet again re abortion and the so called raunch culture it's not a moment too soon.

 

[belboid]

Or does it not just need to be better at explaining its own traditions to new recruits rather than dumbing down? If your ideas are worth defending Pat aren't they worth defending here and now, not after two years of soul searching?

whether they'd be better off doing that may (or may not) be debatable, but there can't be any doubt that they clearly havent done that, so what do they do about it (and whose fault is it? Probably Germans). Callinicos is simply tellinfg those unconvinced to fuck off, whilst Stack is at least trying to retain them.

And what do you think two years of debate would be, other than two years of defending your own ideas? Listening to other people doesnt stop you defending you own ideas.

 

[barney_pig]

Pope resigns. Smith stays put

 

[imposs1904]

Pope resigns. Smith stays put

via facebook:

The Pope says he's too ill to continue working, but ATOS aren't so sure. They suspect a case of Benedict fraud.

 

[pansalar]

Pope resigns. Smith stays put

Smith is still infallible.

 

[DotCommunist]

But what if the vegetarians demand permanent faction rights?

they can join Proletarian Democracy's 'Veg Wedge'

 

[two sheds]

Donkeyburgers all round.​

 

[frogwoman]

Revolutionarize the Vatican

 

[DaveCinzano]

Donkeyburgers all round.​

Donkey jackets not horsey burgers

 

[SpackleFrog]

they can join Proletarian Democracy's 'Veg Wedge'

Are Vegans allowed in the Vedge Wedge? I only ask cos Veganism is tantamount to the rankest bourgeois deviationism.

 

[SpackleFrog]

whether they'd be better off doing that may (or may not) be debatable, but there can't be any doubt that they clearly havent done that, so what do they do about it (and whose fault is it? Probably Germans). Callinicos is simply tellinfg those unconvinced to fuck off, whilst Stack is at least trying to retain them.

And what do you think two years of debate would be, other than two years of defending your own ideas? Listening to other people doesnt stop you defending you own ideas.

Yeah, you'd have to give it to Stack, he is trying to (probably too late) to get a bit of common sense in here. If he succeeds the 'platform' will find itself out on a limb a bit.