SWP expulsions and squabbles

[Delroy Booth]

I don't think anyone should be nostalgic about the end of the swp, whatever their former glories it's commonplace to go on about how inadaquet they are, it's been a stock joke amongst lefties for ages. Look at that workers power thread. Well, things that can't last forever don't.

I do think if the SWP splits into about 3 different factions and effectively collapses as a coherent group, then for all the gloating, it should be a huge wake up call for all the other small trot groups especially the Socialist Party. It's a significant episode in the decline of marxism in Britain, and a perfect example of how dysfunctional "democratic centralism" can be.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Found that tweet about the vote. It claims the majority were shouting 'liar' at the minority :-(

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I don't think anyone should be nostalgic about the end of the swp

I don't think that this is the end of the SWP. It has proven itself to be a very resilient organisation over very many years.

That said, it does seem hard to see how a split can be avoided now. At the very least, it would seem inevitable that some people who feel very strongly about the disputes committee case will go. And also that some allies of the expelled will go (or stay and get expelled at some point in the future). What sort of numbers that will involve is very uncertain though. And whether things will escalate between the CC minority, the DC faction and other more moderate critics and the CC majority is another huge unknown.

Best case scenario for the SWP is a smallish split, perhaps one that doesn't cohere into a viable pole of attraction for others. Worst case scenario is a very large split or series of splits. That there is a range of different issues and factional alignments in play, some of them overlapping, makes the whole situation very complex for the leadership. There are any number of potential flash points.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Anyone confirmed this? Simply can't imagine the ructions that must be going on if this is true. Shit like this just doesn't happen in the SWP, the leadership never has to sweat over a major vote and certainly not over a disciplinary matter.

I haven't seen it confirmed yet. If it's true, you are right. This is really, completely new territory for the SWP.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Worst case scenario is a very large split or series of splits.

I agree that it probably won't be the end of the SWP entirely, some group of people calling themselves a revolutionary committee will still be knocking claiming the mantle of Tony Cliff 5, 10, 15 years from now, but if it splits in a bad way then where can it go from there? It's been in decline for years, and it's reputation for internal democracy, hi-jacking campaigns, behaving really opportunistically and generally fucking things up has been around for as far back as I can remember. It is a resilient organisation that's true, but I think it's nothing short of miraculous they've stayed going this long to be honest, and it can't last forever. Worst case scenario is they're effectively over as a political force of any significance - two or three rival groups call a claim the name SWP, the membership (which is a paper membership anyway) just evaporates back into the ether they counjoured it from, and within a few years they're on the same scale as the sparts and the IBT.

The SP is a very "resilient" organisation that seemingly isn't as prone to splits, but that's partly down to their own sectarianism and partly because it's been run by the same person/group of people for a very long period of time. There's still the same problems within the SP, and I don't care much whether it's marginally better or worse in the SP or SWP that's beside the point because these are pretty fundamental problems.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

The people I know at the conference are all refusing to say anything. They were unhappy yesterday but reasonably communicative. Now there's just a stunned silence.

 

[SpineyNorman]

there's two factions. democratic opposition and democratic centralism.

Are there? Fucking hell, I'd assumed it was just people mixing up the name of the one faction - what's the difference between the two then?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

One sees itself as an opposition and the other wants to reconcile the former with the cc somehow.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Are there? Fucking hell, I'd assumed it was just people mixing up the name of the one faction - what's the difference between the two then?

www.cpgb.org.uk

and socialist unity will answer your questions

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

One sees itself as an opposition and the other wants to reconcile the former with the cc somehow.

The left oppostion and the vaccilating centrists

 

[Delroy Booth]

I've not read socialist unity in ages, i feel dirty

 

[emanymton]

Found that tweet about the vote. It claims the majority were shouting 'liar' at the minority :-(

That doesn't even make sense.

 

[SpineyNorman]

One sees itself as an opposition and the other wants to reconcile the former with the cc somehow.

Take it the latter one is the democratic centralist faction then?

 

[SpineyNorman]

That doesn't even make sense.

Assume it means they were accusing Smith's accusers of lying about whatever it was that went on.

 

[SLK]

This is really shocking, and if true something I never thought I'd see within the SWP. When you see the CC slate though, it's amazing how many good people have disappeared over the last twenty years; I can't say I particularly rate most of them on the CC now. Accepted they might have improved politically and personally in that time.

 

[emanymton]

I agree that it probably won't be the end of the SWP entirely, some group of people calling themselves a revolutionary committee will still be knocking claiming the mantle of Tony Cliff 5, 10, 15 years from now, but if it splits in a bad way then where can it go from there? It's been in decline for years, and it's reputation for internal democracy, hi-jacking campaigns, behaving really opportunistically and generally fucking things up has been around for as far back as I can remember. It is a resilient organisation that's true, but I think it's nothing short of miraculous they've stayed going this long to be honest, and it can't last forever. Worst case scenario is they're effectively over as a political force of any significance - two or three rival groups call a claim the name SWP, the membership (which is a paper membership anyway) just evaporates back into the ether they counjoured it from, and within a few years they're on the same scale as the sparts and the IBT.

The SP is a very "resilient" organisation that seemingly isn't as prone to splits, but that's partly down to their own sectarianism and partly because it's been run by the same person/group of people for a very long period of time. There's still the same problems within the SP, and I don't care much whether it's marginally better or worse in the SP or SWP that's beside the point because these are pretty fundamental problems.

I don't think that damage will be as bad as you think. It looks likely that they will lose a significant chunk of the most active younger members, some now and some over the next few years as they find it too uncomfortable to remain members. Most of the older members will just suck it up and set about the job of recruiting a new layer of young members in September. I am curious to see if an actual split with a rival organisation will take place or if people will just drift away as individuals.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Assume it means they were accusing Smith's accusers of lying about whatever it was that went on.

stay classy SWP cadre

 

[butchersapron]

This is really shocking, and if true something I never thought I'd see within the SWP. When you see the CC slate though, it's amazing how many good people have disappeared over the last twenty years; I can't say I particularly rate most of them on the CC now. Accepted they might have improved politically and personally in that time.

Think I've just sussed you.

 

[emanymton]

Assume it means they were accusing Smith's accusers of lying about whatever it was that went on.

I assume so as well but unless the accuser was actually there it makes no sense to me, and if she was it is disgusting beyond words.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think that damage will be as bad as you think. It looks likely that they will lose a significant chunk of the most active younger members, some now and some over the next few years as they find it too uncomfortable to remain members. Most of the older members will just suck it up and set about the job of recruiting a new layer of young members in September. I am curious to see if an actual split with a rival organisation will take place or if people will just drift away as individuals.

Expansion of university access certainly helped keep them buoyant during the last few decades travails (serious point that). If numbers fall and there are more youthful and energetic competing groups within a smaller arena...

 

[emanymton]

Expansion of university access certainly helped keep them buoyant during the last few decades travails (serious point that). If numbers fall and there are more youthful and energetic competing groups within a smaller arena...

On the first point absolutely. As for the second, are there any such groups in a position to seriously compete? Even if there is a split and a new group forms it won't have anything like the resources of the current SWP. While this will be very damaging to the SWP it will not necessarily lead to a downward spiral, but It might, especially if they can't begin the process of replacing the lost membership from the next crop of students.

Also while those who look likely to leave may be from the current crop of activist many of them wold propably have left or drifting into more passive membership over the next few years anyway.

 

[SpineyNorman]

If what DU is saying about the faction being made up of the more experienced and active (but still relatively young) cadre then it's not just numbers they'll need to replace.

 

[Delroy Booth]

The numbers are pretty meaningless anyway spiney, it's how many of the competent rump of active members is still loyal to the party.

It's like waiting for Assad to fall this.

 

[emanymton]

It will be massively damaging but given time they can recover, if they get the numbers in. And it is all about the numbers, recruit as many as you can, most will never bee seen again some will be Ok members and a few will be the 'stars' of the future. It's the SWP way.

In some ways I think this is still fallout from respect, some of those splitting now where those most critical of Ress/German and the whole Respect project. If the SWP does go into a downward spiral I think it will have been Respect that Killed it.

 

[emanymton]

On a personal note this feels really odd. If the SWP was to disappear I don't know if that would be a good thing or a bad thing, I suspect it won't matter too much either way. But I still have friends who are members, hell I share a house with one. It's a bit like when a friend tells you a relative has died.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The numbers are pretty meaningless anyway spiney, it's how many of the competent rump of active members is still loyal to the party.

It's like waiting for Assad to fall this.

That's the point I was making.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

A mate who's there is taking a positive approach. Says he's proud of how the debate went, that it was serious and passionate and that the young, upcoming cadre he was with last evening are the means by which the party can still renew itself. I did have to point out that the mere fact of he and they sitting discussing this last night and again today could be excuse enough to have them expelled as the ban on permanent factions was reiterated again yesterday.

 

[articul8]

This is like a particularly dull soap opera set in a dwindling sect. None of them count for jack shit beyond their own little circle.

 

[butchersapron]

This is like a particularly dull soap opera set in a dwindling sect. None of them count for jack shit beyond their own little circle.

At least you count for "jack shit" in a far bigger party eh?

Jack-shit

 

[butchersapron]

A mate who's there is taking a positive approach. Says he's proud of how the debate went, that it was serious and passionate and that the young, upcoming cadre he was with last evening are the means by which the party can still renew itself. I did have to point out that the mere fact of he and they sitting discussing this last night and again today could be excuse enough to have them expelled as the ban on permanent factions was reiterated again yesterday.

And this sort of discussion being one of the grounds for one of the expulsions if i remember right.