SWP expulsions and squabbles

[SpineyNorman]

So you're not in a far left group?

What on earth does that have to do with you being a hypocrite

Again you are missing the point. I'm making the point the left groups love it when they think another far left group is in trouble but they miss the point that they are in a group that has all the same problems and issues. As I'm not in a far left group what I'm saying can't be hypocritical, but there you go.

I'm not missing the point - I couldn't miss it if I tried seeing as you don't really have one. It matters not whether you're in a far left group. The point is that nobody on here is gleeful - just interested in what's going on and, at least in my case, hopeful that the SWP might be improved. Except of course you, admit it - it gives you the horn. I haven't ever seen you do anything else on here apart from slag off far left groups - nothing at all, and now you're slagging off a far left group on a thread about another far left group - you're really showing everyone how much you don't care about far left groups aren't you?

Silly fucker

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

I haven't ever seen you do anything else on here apart from slag off far left groups - nothing at all, r

be fair I've seem him slag off the rest of the left as well, like unions etc

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Yes you've made the giving it the horn joke already, and it wasn't funny the first time round.

I think you are misunderstanding the word hyprocrit. I'm saying that far left groups don't see that when they point things out that are going on in other groups when stuff goes wrong (and there usually is an underlying glee), its exactly the same in their organisation. As I'm not in a far left organisation I can't really be a hypocrit on that point. You are probably in a far left organisation so get defensive about it.

Also calm down a bit, it's only a web forum.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I haven't ever seen you do anything else on here apart from slag off far left groups - nothing at all

As it goes the majority of the threads I've started have been about local campaigns to stop the cuts, but don't let reality get in the way.

 

[dennisr]

As it goes the majority of the threads I've started have been about local campaigns to stop the cuts, but don't let reality get in the way.

most of those resulted in you slagging off 'the left' you 'don't give a shit about' - boring cunt

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yes you've made the giving it the horn joke already, and it wasn't funny the first time round.

I think you are misunderstanding the word hyprocrit. I'm saying that far left groups don't see that when they point things out that are going on in other groups when stuff goes wrong (and there usually is an underlying glee), its exactly the same in their organisation. As I'm not in a far left organisation I can't really be a hypocrit on that point. You are probably in a far left organisation so get defensive about it.

Also calm down a bit, it's only a web forum.

I'm not being defensive - I'm taking the piss out of you. I'm also perfectly calm, thanks for the concern though. It was funny both times by the way.

I am in a far left organization, but then again you already knew that. I'm not being defensive though - I'm perfectly aware of and don't deny the problems my own organization has. I'm just taking the piss out of your slightly bizarre hypocritical obsession. You are being a hypocrite - you're accusing people of gleefully slagging off left groups whilst gleefully slagging off left groups.

As it goes the majority of the threads I've started have been about local campaigns to stop the cuts, but don't let reality get in the way.

That's funny cos I've just had a look at your recent contributions to this board and all of them are either slagging off the SWP, the SP, the left in general or the GMB. You have to go back to February to find anything else.

Anyway, this is getting boring now. The only thing here that gives me feelings of glee is the idea that the people I know and respect from my time in the SWP might finally get rid of a CC that treats them with utter contempt.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

When you have to say your own jokes are funny it's not a good sign

Again you miss the point. I'm not accusing people of slagging off left groups. I'm saying when they slag them off then can't see that the same thing applies to their own organisation. There is a difference. But, of course, it is only the SWP CC that is the problem. Doesn't apply to your group. Oh no. And that is the point other posters on this thread have been making. It's not about individuals in the CC of the SWP, it's about a political method which all the far left groups in this country have as far as I can see. It leads to a totally top down bureaucratic way of organising, with unelected full timers, people being in the leadership for decades on end and a way of operating in campaigns which totally alienates people (my experience of the various fronts in the anti-cuts movement, UTR/SWP, NSSN/SP and COR/CF turned out to be little different. They were all fronts, all did very little and all had bun fights at a national and local levels which alienated loads of people and helped result in the mess that is the anti-cuts movement at the moment). I don't think socialist organisations have to be that way though.

Also you aren't looking very hard:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/demonstrate-this-wednesday-say-no-to-cuts-in-lambeth.299278/

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes you've made the giving it the horn joke already, and it wasn't funny the first time round.

I think you are misunderstanding the word hyprocrit.

Probably because you've spelt it wrong.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

most of those resulted in you slagging off 'the left' you 'don't give a shit about' - boring cunt

At least be honest about it. I've put up loads of threads about anti-cuts campaigns and literally none of them have resulted in this. Here are just a few. But don't let reality get in the way of things.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/demonstrate-this-wednesday-say-no-to-cuts-in-lambeth.299278/

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/f29-why-lobby-the-cop-out-council.288202/

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...h-council-cuts-lobby-29-february-2012.287002/

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/the-cooperative-council.282468/

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...lambeth-demonstration-tomorrow-friday.278383/

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/uk-uncut-demonstration-sat-28th-may-2011.275005/

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...es-libraries-park-rangers-weds-11-may.274046/

 

[articul8]

... rather than just chucking out bitty little antagonistic statements designed just to provoke responses you can retrospectively weave backwards into some kind of obscure narrative at the end

Ted knight.

Genius

 

[ViolentPanda]

Genius

More of an idiot savant.

 

[articul8]

Apron? Idiot will suffice...

 

[SpineyNorman]

When you have to say your own jokes are funny it's not a good sign

Again you miss the point. I'm not accusing people of slagging off left groups. I'm saying when they slag them off then can't see that the same thing applies to their own organisation. There is a difference. But, of course, it is only the SWP CC that is the problem. Doesn't apply to your group. Oh no. And that is the point other posters on this thread have been making. It's not about individuals in the CC of the SWP, it's about a political method which all the far left groups in this country have as far as I can see. It leads to a totally top down bureaucratic way of organising, with unelected full timers, people being in the leadership for decades on end and a way of operating in campaigns which totally alienates people (my experience of the various fronts in the anti-cuts movement, UTR/SWP, NSSN/SP and COR/CF turned out to be little different. They were all fronts, all did very little and all had bun fights at a national and local levels which alienated loads of people and helped result in the mess that is the anti-cuts movement at the moment). I don't think socialist organisations have to be that way though.

Also you aren't looking very hard:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/demonstrate-this-wednesday-say-no-to-cuts-in-lambeth.299278/

When people are too humourless to get them you have to explain that they're funny. And I'm not missing the point and you're still a boring hypocrite. Please learn to use the quote function too. And is 'And that is the point other posters on this thread have been making' a new variation of 'numerous PMs of support'? Only I don't see many people backing you up here so maybe that's not the point other posters were making at all.

I'm not accusing people of slagging off left groups. I'm saying when they slag them off then can't see that the same thing applies to their own organisation.

To do one you have to do the other - do you not realize that?

But, of course, it is only the SWP CC that is the problem. Doesn't apply to your group. Oh no.

That's interesting, especially as in the post you replied to I said this:

"I am in a far left organization, but then again you already knew that. I'm not being defensive though - I'm perfectly aware of and don't deny the problems my own organization has. I'm just taking the piss out of your slightly bizarre hypocritical obsession. You are being a hypocrite - you're accusing people of gleefully slagging off left groups whilst gleefully slagging off left groups."

You're right that the problem isn't just the SWP CC. But they're among the biggest obstacles in the way of the real problems being addressed - they're part of the problem. In fact I agree with pretty much all your criticisms of the far left. And I'm not all that optimistic about it but I do hold out some hope that this lot might be able to go some way towards changing that. You seem to be making all kinds of weird assumptions about my views.

Anyway, this derail has gone on for long enough and I've got better things to do than spend all day talking to an internet obsessive.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

So boring that once again you just have to reply, and have to point out again that you are actually very funny. Also you just have to read the posts earlier in the thread to see what they are saying. Also fairly amusing that you tell me to use the quote function and then use quotation marks, oh well.

Personally I don't see how the SWP are any more an obstacle than the Socialist Party. Two peas in a pod. But I agree that hopefully people will find a better way of going about things.

As for internet obsessive you might want to look at your post count. Happy new year.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Getting back to the subject of the thread, and away from tedious one note moaning, SWP conference is on at the moment and it seems that things are a bit lively. According to various anonymous posters on the less than reliable Socialist Unity site, there have been two developments so far:

1) the CC is now split between a majority including all of the old hands and a minority of four of the more junior members. The four opposed the CC reply to the factions and as a result, the majoritys recommended slate throws two of them off. As a result there are two rival slates proposed.

2) some of the votes have already happened, with the CC majority winning on various democracy proposals with a 2:1 split. I'm not aware of the leadership ever having a third of conference delegates vote against them on anything significant ever before. Certainly the proto counter fire couldn't get anything like that support.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The four dissident CC members are Dee, Choonara Jr, Bergman and Ray whatsisface. The majority's recommended slate includes Choonara and Bergman but not the other two. The latest CC (majority) document also makes reference to a CC vote to censure one of the removed.

Apparently Choonara and Bergman say that they won't agree to be on the CC should the majority slate win.

No word as of yet about the disputes committee case or the expulsions.

 

[emanymton]

Just had a look at SU, it looks like the majority faction on the CC proposed a new slate but replaced Dee and Ray whatshisface with two new people, the four 'dissident' CC members than proposed a slate identical to the one listed in one of the internal bulletins.

 

[emanymton]

If anyone is interested it looks like the disputes committee report (or whatever it's called) was accepted, but it was a 'close' vote.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

If anyone is interested it looks like the disputes committee report (or whatever it's called) was accepted, but it was a 'close' vote.

Someone on Twitter said it was 230 to 209 and there was shouting involved. If that's accurate, it's likely to get messy.

 

[emanymton]

Someone on Twitter said it was 230 to 209 and there was shouting involved. If that's accurate, it's likely to get messy.

Much closer than the democracy motions then. Whatever happens the SWP isn't coming out of this any stronger. I wonder how accurately the conference votes reflect felling among the wider membership.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Anyway, this derail has gone on for long enough and I've got better things to do than spend all day talking to an internet obsessive.

Comrade, with the SWP imploding, AWL dissappearing into the Labour party, Respect abandoning all pretence of socialism and becoming a tame islamist party and the Workers Power Anti-Capitalist Initiative, incredibly, failing to make much headway, we should be preparing for The Socialist Party aka Militant aka Revolutionary Socialist League to become the biggest Trots on the Block.

Wasting time with this exchange is not what a highly experienced cadre, whose experience and guidance will be required in order cement the CWI's position as the natural party of the Trotksyite left, should be doing at this critical opening in the class struggle.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It's the combination of the democracy/expulsions stuff with the disputes committee issue which makes the whole situation so hard to manage for the leadership.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Comrade, with the SWP imploding, AWL dissappearing into the Labour party, Respect abandoning all pretence of socialism and becoming a tame islamist party and the Workers Power Anti-Capitalist Initiative, incredibly, failing to make much headway, we should be preparing for The Socialist Party aka Militant aka Revolutionary Socialist League to become the biggest Trots on the Block.

Wasting time with this exchange is not what a highly experienced cadre, whose experience and guidance will be required in order cement the CWI's position as the natural party of the Trotksyite left, should be doing at this critical opening in the class struggle.

Why do I get the impression that you might be slightly taking the piss?

 

[SpineyNorman]

This one does seem to go a bit deeper than previous splits, I'm starting to think that the only way the SWP will be able to prevent itself from splitting right down the middle would be for the alternative slate to win.

This is based on the assumption that the democratic left platform opposition revolutionary bolshevik faction or whatever they're calling themselves have as much support elsewhere as they do in my area though, which isn't necessarily the case.

 

[discokermit]

the democratic left platform opposition revolutionary bolshevik faction or whatever they're calling themselves .

there's two factions. democratic opposition and democratic centralism.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

there's two factions. democratic opposition and democratic centralism.

Both showing a lamentable lack of imagination in their naming scheme, it has to be said. They should have gone with something gloriously silly like "Seattle Bolshevik" as the minority in the German SWP group did a few years ago.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Someone on Twitter said it was 230 to 209 and there was shouting involved. If that's accurate, it's likely to get messy.

Anyone confirmed this? Simply can't imagine the ructions that must be going on if this is true. Shit like this just doesn't happen in the SWP, the leadership never has to sweat over a major vote and certainly not over a disciplinary matter. If this is true then what DU said earlier in this thread about the core, educated cadres having had enough is likely true as well. Which is kind of depressing for those of us with residual affection for that party and no desire to see it implode :-( How can the leadership have so badly misjudged the mood? Looking at the history of the party cynically the one thing the cc was always good at was knowing what would be acceptable to the membership and what wouldn't. They must really have lost their way if they allow silly, unnecessary expulsions to tip the organisation over the brink. From a distance this is very sad to watch.

 

[discokermit]

Anyone confirmed this? Simply can't imagine the ructions that must be going on if this is true. Shit like this just doesn't happen in the SWP, the leadership never has to sweat over a major vote and certainly not over a disciplinary matter. If this is true then what DU said earlier in this thread about the core, educated cadres having had enough is likely true as well. Which is kind of depressing for those of us with residual affection for that party and no desire to see it implode :-( How can the leadership have so badly misjudged the mood? Looking at the history of the party cynically the one thing the cc was always good at was knowing what would be acceptable to the membership and what wouldn't. They must really have lost their way if they allow silly, unnecessary expulsions to tip the organisation over the brink. From a distance this is very sad to watch.

no it isn't. it's a great opportunity.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I remember when we had major ructions in the Irish Cliffite group over alternate slates and the Prof was in Dublin for the conference. He was like a pillar of strength in support of the 'official' slate because he had behind him the full authority of the British cc which never, ever allowed things to get so out of control. If I'd known then (over 20 years ago) that some day he'd be facing the same sort of crisis I and others might have stood up to him with something more like a backbone

 

[bolshiebhoy]

no it isn't. it's a great opportunity.

fair enough, can see why many will say so. But surely it's more likely to just destroy a lot of good people and/or leave them a lot weaker than they were before this started?