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SWP expulsions and squabbles

what are you talking about about... you start by claiming me using the term 'in the present period' means i'm 'still talking like them' and thus justifying the logic of the CC unconsciously... then when i 'wtf?' that you claim that you were 'right' on the SWP so why shouldn't you be right that i've picked up habits of speech from the party - and after a further clarification you then claim that by this you meant that you were right that i, personally, would change my mind on the SWP through experience after having been a 16-17 year old mouthpiece for the party on p+p... then you claim that I am claiming that 'i was right and you were wrong' thus further proving your point that i was justifying the same logic as the SWP CC, and now all of this somehow links into some 'well informed critique' of 'how vanguardist parties operate in general and the SWP in particular that have proven to be correct so deserve to be taken seriously'...

seriously man if you have a point to make then just make it, rather than just chucking out bitty little antagonistic statements designed just to provoke responses you can retrospectively weave backwards into some kind of obscure narrative at the end.
 
You can take the student out of the swp but you can't take...

Come the fuck on, you offer apologies (not that i think anyone is after them) that are surrounded with but i was right to be wrong at that time. You show that you do take the criticisms made at the time (and before and ongoing seriously, but then undermine them with this but but but. Its the same problem that i have with wilson and watson. Make your criticism of the party - and all vanguardist parties - concrete. Argue for the parties dissolution and refounding on different basic principles, not a call to leninist discipline. Imagine all that energy the party wastes on this shit being freed.
 
what is this obsession with 'right and wrong'!? you brought it up, in the terms that you claimed you had been right about my attitudes on an internet message board over 5 years ago - for what reason i have no idea - then despite the fact you repeatedly bring it up you claim you don't want a retraction or apology (why do you keep bringing it up then? and why do you insist that i accept you were 'right' about it?)

this isn't an argument, you're just peppering the discussion with semi-coherent soundbites and put-downs whilst concocting new angles as you go along. perhaps if i allow it you'll settle into a position and act like that's what was being said all the time, and on that note - on perhaps the first actually coherent issue you've raised in 7 posts:

butchersapron said:
Argue for the parties dissolution and refounding on different basic principles, not a call to leninist discipline
Click to expand...


for the record, i do do this - and this fact also has absolutely nothing to do with me using the phrase 'in the present period' or claiming that i was 'right to be wrong when i was 17' or anything else you've taken issue with.
 
audiotech said:
You could ask the apron about his former membership of the Labour party, for the lols like.
Click to expand...

not sure that would be relevant in any way??

It would be if butchers was saying that there are still good people in the Labour party and that if only the LRC could gain more influence there might be something worth salvaging
 
for the lols like.

DU: if the new party is founded on the same chest prodding i was right to be wrong, it was the period then it'd die immediately as the trapped masses escape. Do you see why i'm emphasising this - an organisation breeds attitudes that can outlive that organisation. Especially an aggressively vanguardist organisation due to its self selected role as brain and memory of the class, the one who can see clearer and further than the class, who can generalise class lessons by its very existence. Dissolve this as well.
 
butchersapron said:
DU: if the new party is founded on the same chest prodding i was right to be wrong, it was the period then it'd die immediately as the trapped masses escape. Do you see why i'm emphasising this - an organisation breeds attitudes that can outlive that organisation. Especially an aggressively vanguardist organisation due to its self selected role as brain and memory of the class, the one who can see clearer and further than the class, who can generalise class lessons by its very existenced. Dissolve this as well.
Click to expand...

Is it just me? I find the way SWPers used to speak of 'the class' almost as annoying as how they did stuff.

In any case 'aggressively vanguardist' has got to be identical to 'aggressively offputting' as far as most normal people are concerned. IME and IMO anyway.
 
butchersapron said:
for the lols like.

DU: if the new party is founded on the same chest prodding i was right to be wrong, it was the period then it'd die immediately as the trapped masses escape. Do you see why i'm emphasising this - an organisation breeds attitudes that can outlive that organisation. Especially an aggressively vanguardist organisation due to its self selected role as brain and memory of the class, the one who can see clearer and further than the class, who can generalise class lessons by its very existenced. Dissolve this as well.
Click to expand...

but i'm not arguing that, all i ever originally said was that the IS tradition - whilst accepting it still contained many of the undemocratic elements which would later surface in the SWP - was still achieving something and on that basis i could have invested energies into rectifying it rather than just writing it off altogether... that and that the formation of the SWP ruined the progress being made by the IS (implicitly, this means i argue against 'saving' the SWP today).

the point you make here is fine as a stand-alone point but it's not in any real sense a response to what i posted. what can i say? i agree
 
Das Uberdog said:
seriously man if you have a point to make then just make it, rather than just chucking out bitty little antagonistic statements designed just to provoke responses you can retrospectively weave backwards into some kind of obscure narrative at the end.
Click to expand...

you want him to make his point, openly and argue for it? Whatever next? Good luck with that.
 
One_Stop_Shop said:
I think the post above me, which I've just seen, seems to be making the same point. Which is why I originally posted on this thread. There are too many people in very similar left groups who take glee out of this (whether they admit it or not), yet are doing the same thing themselves. You can almost feel the excitment from people in other groups who post up threads like this, but who are totally missing the wood for the trees.
Click to expand...

il_fullxfull.229555954.jpg



Come on admit it - you were so gleeful when you saw that post that you had to have a little play with your private parts.
 
butchersapron said:
Make your criticism of the party - and all vanguardist parties - concrete. Argue for the parties dissolution and refounding on different basic principles, not a call to leninist discipline. Imagine all that energy the party wastes on this shit being freed.
Click to expand...
there's nothing wrong with discipline. in fact it's essential.
 
discokermit said:
action. argue it through, thrash it out, make a decision and act on it. together.
Click to expand...
I agree, that's good. 50 years of leninist discipline suggest otherwise. They suggest that it's a stupid outdated method of organisation - when tied to a single party.

But what does it mean to say 'leninist discipline' is what is required in 2013
 
butchersapron said:
I agree, that's good. 50 years of leninist discipline suggest otherwise. They suggest that it's a stupid outdated method of organisation - when tied to a single party.
Click to expand...
i don't think the single party is necessarily the problem.i also don't think we've seen 50 years of leninist discipline. everything has been distorted through stalin and capitalism.

i'll be back with a better thought out response in a bit, i'm off to the chippy now.
 
Spineynorman you seem to be missing the point. I'm not in a far left group, so it makes no difference to me what happens to any of them. But at a rough guess the people responding to my posts in a defensive way are in one of the far left groups themselves.
 
One_Stop_Shop said:
Spineynorman you seem to be missing the point. I'm not in a far left group, so it makes no difference to me what happens to any of them. But at a rough guess the people responding to my posts in a defensive way are in one of the far left groups themselves.
Click to expand...

Nah I don't think I am. Who's 'respondong to your posts in a defensive way' anyway? I for one am just taking the piss out of your hypocrisy.
 
So you're not in a far left group?

Again you are missing the point. I'm making the point the left groups love it when they think another far left group is in trouble but they miss the point that they are in a group that has all the same problems and issues. As I'm not in a far left group what I'm saying can't be hypocritical, but there you go.
 
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