J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Yeah, agree entirely. It's re-packaged Españolismo but just how have they managed to sell that to the downwardly mobile and take voters off Podemos?
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Yeah, agree entirely. It's re-packaged Españolismo but just how have they managed to sell that to the downwardly mobile and take voters off Podemos?
Threshers_Flail
Well-Known Member
An accommodating media and generally being the new guys who aren't deemed dangerous leftists?
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Yeah, I think that has to be most of the story, as it was with for example Macron but there has to be something beyond that. It's not enough, especially under the economic conditions endured by so many in Spain.
cathal marcs
Well-Known Member
My hypothesis is that Podemos with their neither left or right discourse, trying to catch voters of all shades and colours only lasts for a short time. Some of the voters who voted Podemos who didn't consider themselves to be on the left (or the right) will have drifted off to other parties.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I hadn't considered this at all. To be honest I thought that the Iglesias strategy of abandoning the symbolism and rhetoric to some extent of the 20th Century Spanish Republican and Marxist left was a good one, as was their rhetoric of the people vs the ruling class but you think that this deliberately open space has allowed Ciudadanos appropriate at least the rhetoric to their own ends? Interesting.
Threshers_Flail
Well-Known Member
Good point. Their agnosticism on the Catalan dispute isn't washing with a lot of people either.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
The people I know who are unionists watch Tele5 and Antena3, which is like watching Jeremy Kyle all day. Propaganda, lies, and a total lack of critical thinking has left a massive swathe of the spanish population in a state that can only be described as "Thick as shit", or culturally impoverished, if you prefer. You only need look at the videos of unionist demos to see the level of their arguments which don't go beyond the "Yo Soy Español, Español" and the "A por ellos". In my town, shortly after the police violence on the 1st of october, 2500 Españolistas marched to the police station to pay homage to the aggressors, waving spanish flags. Thick and cunts, to boot, and there are fucking loads of them. Spain has created them.
Their nationalism is aggressive, colonialist and culturally fascist. I don't see that changing. Spain is fucked.
This video shows militants from Cuidadanos during the electoral campaign in catalonia. While talking about the education system he says:
"If people who want to learn Catalan they should go to private academies and pay for it themselves".
Note that he speaks castellano and is not from Catalonia himself, by the accent which is from Andalusia. The question is, where does he think he is?
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tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Racist baloney!
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Propaganda, lies and a total lack of critical thinking would seem to sum up much of what you have posted here. If you want to query the lies bit, I would cite your dishonest and casual flinging around of the term fascist to condemn those who disagree with you.
Your nationalism is also incredibly aggressive; and your patronising racism towards anyone from other regions of Spain stinks.
As to banners etc, those from both sides look pretty similar to me.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Quite a nasty classist attack in places there. Surprised you didn't manage to stick the word "chavs" in there.
Finishing with a typically anti-Andaluz snobbish attack. You really are a Catalan now aren't you? The same kind of snobbishness that led to the ex-president of the parlament getting shit every time he made a tiny mistake in Catalan and the "go home!" taunts to Inés Arrimidas in parliament sessions themselves. I don't like her politics but why on earth should she get that thrown at her?
I'm STILL in favour of Catalan independence if that's what a majority of people want, but I've got serious doubts about your brand of independentismo. Thick fucking Spanish dossers and more-refined, intelligent Catalan independence supporters. Nasty stuff.
cathal marcs
Well-Known Member
And Catalan nationalists are all free thinking tolerant individuals, immune to being "culturally impoverished" like this lady here?
In the end, you get arseholes from everywhere, more so if they are in Cs, but Cs voters are not merely people from the rest of Spain, they have plenty of voters who are born and bred Catalans too.
Or this lovely poster from 2008
I'm not saying this is representative of Catalan nationalism, I am in favour of there being a referendum and letting the people decide. What I dislike is the sneering moral superiority of certain sectors of Catalan nationalism in regards to people from the rest of Spain.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
I can tell you it was a party that was founded in Catalonia in 2006 and wasn't involved in Spanish national politics until some years later.You already know, but I don't think all that many British people will realise that.
I don't think many Spanish people realise that.
They originally promoted themselves as a liberal, left wing party - filling a small void. Today, they are more often cited as being moderate, if not far right. They took votes from the PP, then very quickly turned to join forces when it suited them. I'm not sure they even know where they stand themselves.
It is very difficult for anyone within Spain to fully understand how the system works, never mind those of us outside of the system. Hardly surprising that many don't really know what they are actually voting for. Puigdemont himself is only where he is today (I don't mean Belgium) after compromising his own stand point for the sake of finding a public voice. For me, this is the biggest problem - he shouts for independence without actually stating what that independence is. None of my friends in Catalonia who claim they are in favour of independence can actually tell me what it means to them other than being an anti Rajoy/PP stance.
The whole system is confused. PODEMOS offered a viable alternative, but even they are now compromising to the point that they have no fundamental value.
Listen to yourself. I hope you're not saying that they are not Catalan enough.
It seems too close to what I heard when I lived in the Basque Country. Some Basque nationalists think they live on some kind of Native American reservation. Like if you're born in the back seat of a car while driving through the Navajo Nation you're not a Navajo. There are plenty of Basques who think that even people born and raised in the Basque Country are not 'Basque enough'.
A friend of mine was told by some of her circle of friends not to marry a Brit because it would dilute the blood.
The most common Basque word for Basque is Euskaldun: a person who speaks Basque. It would make Dylan Thomas not Welsh enough.
There's a lot of growing up to do in these regions; it won't work saying that too many people who live in a place are not really from there because/so they are not nationalist enough. Tough shit; they live there, they get to vote there. Their children certainly do.
What's the alternative?
An 'Are you Basque/Catalan/Gallego enough?' test?
A different interpretation to Spanish law on jus soli in these autonomous regions would be controversial. And racially tinged. There's quite enough of that directed from north to south already.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
The majority of Ciutadan's voters DON'T feel Catalan. It's a lie. They feel more spanish, and are openly proud of the regions where they came from. So the question is not are they catalan enough but do they even want to be considered Catalan?
I have heard many times the sentence "I hate the Catalans" from people who I have to work with here in Catalonia. Most of them are nice people but once you get them talking on Spain and Catalonia all the shit starts to come out. There are people who have lived here half their life who refuse to learn Catalan. It's a reality, they see Catalonia through indoctrinated colonialist eyes and catalan culture and language as something that ultimately makes them uncomfortable and defies their spanishness. A minority of Cuitadans voters actually feel half catalan half spanish and have mixed sentiments and have voted following feelings rather than class interests. A woman I've known for years told me her family would vote Arrimadas (C's) because she will invest in hospitals and social projects. All of this she got from watching Antena3.
Why are people twisting this to make it look like the Catalans are somehow the ones who are intolerant. It's a lie. Spanish nationalism manifests itself in Catalonia with hate. The simple fact that it exists here must tell you something about the mentality and origin of it. The links to stuff that Cathal has linked to above are a poor effort, indeed.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
A deliberate misquote there. I have not said "anyone". I refer only to the bigotted spanish nationalists because they are culturally fascist. A repulsion of that bigotry is quite natural if you think about it.
Well Tim, they don't mean the same thing at all. Waving the spanish flag in Catalonia (while praising the police violence) is in itself not an act of innocent protest but of aggresion, an act of colonialist bigotry.
The two flags/sides cannot be compared. That would be intellectually dishonest.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
It's classist to point out the make-up of C's voters?
And pointing out the non-catalan origin of the bigot from C's who is attacking the catalan language in that video is for you "anti-Andaluz"? It seems to me you are going out of your way to distract from the reality shown in that video. So here it is again, to annoy you.
Now, give me your opinion on him. Or do you agree with him? I don't see you complaining about his words only distracting from it in a dishonest way.
It shows someone who lives in Catalonia who clearly is NOT from Catalonia and who has the fucking arrogance to tell the Catalans that there language shouldn't be taught in their schools but that they should go to private academies and pay for it themselves.
Why haven't you commented on that video?
Be that as it may. In other words: so what?
I don't like Ciudanos/Ciutadans either. Nor do I care for whatever CiU are called this time: their alliance with Aznar's PP was neo-liberal, repressive and savage. They don't get a free pass because they're nationalists.
But... easy question: Should their supporters have been allowed to vote?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You've been comparing the two sides for ages. You are intellectually dishonest.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Are all those in Catalonia who voted for unionist parties "Bigotted Spanish nationalists? And if so, are all those bigotted Spanish nationalists fascists? Likewise are any or indeed many Catalan nationalists fascists bigotted? And if so would you class any of them as fascists?
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
It's not classist to point out the make-up of C's voters. However, seeing as only 3% of people living in Catalonia consider themselves "only Spanish" (source Metroscopia), what you're saying is clearly bollocks. The guy in the video is a cunt. No doubt about that.
The PP, the government's handling of the whole situation, the violence of the police, the failure to organise a real referendum - these are all the very worst things that have happened in recent months. I think that if the polls could every get to 55+ in favour of independence, with something of a clear electoral mandate in a referendum - I'd be pleased in most ways to see a Catalan republic.
What I don't like is your filtering of everything Spanish to only show the very worst and present it as typical of everything. Your ridiculous idealisation of Catalans and Catalunya, as a paradise where "soft, comfortable people" cheer each other on teary-eyed from balconies in the pursuit of of the forthcoming republic. Your total denial of the snobbery that Catalans hold toward people from other regions. Calling the resulting generations of the poor-Andalusians who came post-civil war to Catalonia "migrants" and hinting that they should "go back to where they came from" is disgusting. As is calling the working class people who don't share your TV viewing choice Jeremy Kyle idiots. The total denial that Catalan politicians or people are anything other than perfect and ever do anything wrong. Claims that Catalonia is less corrupt than Spain, or even economically less-right wing than Spain.
There is a lot of sympathy for Catalonia here on Urban, but you're managing to draw fire on here, simply for your tone, approach and the nasty undertones of some of your posts. It might be worth asking yourself why.
Visca Catalunya but Anudder Oik al hoyo sisplau.
*typos edited*
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Just who is Anudder Oik?
You berate the immigrants! Are you not an immigrant yourself? Are you Catalan? Have you even registered on the padron? What is your own status in Catalonia?
Some of things you have posted here go well beyond bigoted stupidity. It is time you explained yourself, or shut the fuck up. You are actually damaging any independence cause here. I have passed the point of suspecting this is your intention. You write with a mixed up style of non-native English. Who the fuck are you? Personally, if it was my decision, I would have banned you from these boards long ago. You have spouted far too much vile shit and repeatedly distorted the truth to the point where you long since passed any credibility to my eyes. Obviously; you think some people are more stupid.
Stop the bullshit, or simply fuck off.
You berate the immigrants! Are you not an immigrant yourself? Are you Catalan? Have you even registered on the padron? What is your own status in Catalonia?
Some of things you have posted here go well beyond bigoted stupidity. It is time you explained yourself, or shut the fuck up. You are actually damaging any independence cause here. I have passed the point of suspecting this is your intention. You write with a mixed up style of non-native English. Who the fuck are you? Personally, if it was my decision, I would have banned you from these boards long ago. You have spouted far too much vile shit and repeatedly distorted the truth to the point where you long since passed any credibility to my eyes. Obviously; you think some people are more stupid.
Stop the bullshit, or simply fuck off.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Well Anudder Oik,
I think your use of the the term colony is intellectually dishonest. Catalonia has a history little different from much of the rest of Europe part of a larger state created partly through warfare, partly through dynastic matrimonial alliances. Catalonia united with Aragon in 1150 as the consequence of a princess marrying a prince: Aragon, in turn, was united with Castille in a similar matrimonial alliance. Furthermore, Catalonia has for centuries been administered in the same way as other regions of Spain.
That doesn't meant to say that Catalonians do not have the right to secede, or that if the population wishes but that would be the same for disatisfied citizens of any region in any other country.
Catalonia, to reiterate, is no more a colony of Spain, than Scotland, Cornwall or Wessex are colonies of the United Kingdom; or Brittany, Normandy, Sardinia and Roussillon are colonies of France.
Two asides, now, Anudder Oik, a long way up the thread you made reference to the Paisos Catalans - greater Catalonia; those territories in France, Spain Sardinia and all of Andorra which are or traditionally were Catalan speaking. Are they colonies? Should they be united with an independent motherland? And what us your take on Gibraltar, which clearly is a British colony that was seized from Spain 300 years ago. Should that be reunited with its mother-country? Should we respect or ignore the views of its residents most of whom favour the status quo but are mostly the descendants of settlers?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Just as another counter to some of the above, inside Catalonia it is commonly said that the families of migrants are sometimes the most Catalanista of all. I used to hear this fairly often from Catalans. The idea being that they moved from the poverty of the South, came and found work, and then became so happy with their new lives that they instilled Catalan values in their children.
The opposite is sometimes the case too, but there's so much more nuance to this than AO's take on it.
There are working class people in Catalonia, who have no links to other regions who want to stay in Spain. There are also anti-independence working class people, who come from families that did come from other regions. They certainly did not move to Catalonia to colonise it. They came to work and feed themselves and their families because they were fuck-poor after the civil war in most cases. They had every right to do so, and they have every right to feel however they want to now.
I hope Anudder Oik doesn't eat tapas. It's a colonial food brought to Barcelona by the immigrants from the South in the 50s. Every time you eat a patata brava you're committing Catalan cultural genocide.
*typo corrected again* i can't type.
The opposite is sometimes the case too, but there's so much more nuance to this than AO's take on it.
There are working class people in Catalonia, who have no links to other regions who want to stay in Spain. There are also anti-independence working class people, who come from families that did come from other regions. They certainly did not move to Catalonia to colonise it. They came to work and feed themselves and their families because they were fuck-poor after the civil war in most cases. They had every right to do so, and they have every right to feel however they want to now.
I hope Anudder Oik doesn't eat tapas. It's a colonial food brought to Barcelona by the immigrants from the South in the 50s. Every time you eat a patata brava you're committing Catalan cultural genocide.
*typo corrected again* i can't type.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Every time you eat a patata brava a fairy dies
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Perhaps, he's part of a M.I.6 false flag operation aimed at using social media to create discord and conflict across the European Union.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
lol are you calling him Russian or something?
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