Spanish Political News

[Anudder Oik]

Proper socialists of course rally to the banner of corrupt centre-right Catalan Nationalists.

There are things that you can critique Podemos for, lots of them, and one is that they have moved to the right but the fact that they haven't thrown themselves behind right-wing Catalan Nationalism isn't one of them. Their opposition to both the españolistas and your lot is principled and logical, even if it has not worked well electorally.

What do you want Podemos to do exactly? Declare themselves in favour of a UDI without a properly conducted democratic election?

Interesting. What do you think of Fachin's statement in that link? He's ex Podemos. Booted out for closing ranks, temporarliy, with the independence block (the people) in order to combat an undemocratic asssault by the spanish right.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, but they don't reject austerity and prefer to purge members who do.

Which is a tad odd seeing as they were supposedly born of the Indignados movement. Their fence sitting in all this has been questionable as it strengthened the right wing spanish nationalists, adding to their block in the anti-catalan elections.

On this same question, they also purged the leadership in Catalonia, Fachin. His criticism of Podemos' position is partially translated in this link Post 2539. Imo they are a phoney left who have shown that they will fold at the first true tests that come up. Pablo Iglesias rose to become leader after being "promoted" on chat shows on the sexta channel which is owned by a fascist.

Podemos in catalonia don't reject austerity?

 

[J Ed]

Interesting. What do you think of Fachin's statement in that link? He's ex Podemos. Booted out for closing ranks, temporarliy, with the independence block (the people) in order to combat an undemocratic asssault by the spanish right.

I think that I hadn't watched the video before, but now I have watched it and I can understand why it was only partially translated. Incoherent and self-contradictory mess. The whole rupture vs continuity idea post-78 in Spain is very clear in Podemos' politics, and a rejection of a UDI without a democratic election does not change any of that.

In the video @4.08 Fachin says that every vote in favour of Podemos in Catalonia is a vote in favour of Rajoy, and that Rajoy would regard each vote that way. It conflates the position of Podemos with that of Ciudadanos, PSOE and the PP which is plainly ridiculous since unlike those parties, Podemos explicitly calls for a referendum.

 

[redsquirrel]

Yes, but they don't reject austerity and prefer to purge members who do.

And what about JxC, do they 'reject' austerity?

EDIT: And considering your post below are JxC left wing in your view?

 

[Anudder Oik]

I think that I hadn't watched the video before, but now I have watched it and I can understand why it was only partially translated. Incoherent and self-contradictory mess. The whole rupture vs continuity idea post-78 in Spain is very clear in Podemos' politics, and a rejection of a UDI without a democratic election does not change any of that.

In the video @4.08 Fachin says that every vote in favour of Podemos in Catalonia is a vote in favour of Rajoy, and that Rajoy would regard each vote that way. It conflates the position of Podemos with that of Ciudadanos, PSOE and the PP which is plainly ridiculous since unlike those parties, Podemos explicitly calls for a referendum.

On this thread people are already adding the Podemos vote to the unionist block so imagine what Rajoy is doing. They are conflated with ciutadans and share their block. Catalonia is under assault from the PP government with the courts, the 155, and physical repression. To just ignore that and sit on the fence is not, imo, a left wing stance. It ignores the historic reality of the moment and lets the PP get on with its erosion of democracy. They are making more lists for arrests. The Guardia Civil have passed a document to the judge stating that the "Diada" Catalonia's national day, is rebellion. The priority for the left was to reject the harder of two evils. A kick min the teeth for Rajoy at this moment would be far more damaging to the right than a defeat of the independence movement, yet Podemos manouvred in a shared space with the PP and ciutadans. That is not to say they are right wing.

Their call for a "legal" referendum is totally hipocritical as they know very well that it will never ever be allowed by the spanish state parties, never. Fachin is not incoherent, 500,000 people saw the video in 24 hours and no one is calling it incoherent.

What will the Podemos' stance achieve? Will they come out strengthened? Will the extreme right come out strengthened? Podemos lost 40,000 votes, probably due to Fachin's video. What is the space Podemos hopes to expand when the right wing in Spain feel that their repression is justified in the election results in which Podemos are "counted"?

 

[Anudder Oik]

Podemos in catalonia don't reject austerity?

The problem was last week in Madrid, The mayoress Manuela Carmena of the Podemos group of allies was ordered by The PP economy minister to administer massive austerity measures in the city council. In order to comply with her orders she had to remove any dissent from her own side, which she dutifully did by sacking Carlos Sanchez Mato.

Manuela Carmena destituye a Carlos Sánchez Mato como concejal de Economía por los recortes que impone Montoro

 

[J Ed]

On this thread people are already adding the Podemos vote to the unionist block so imagine what Rajoy is doing. They are conflated with ciutadans and share their block. Catalonia is under assault from the PP government with the courts, the 155, and physical repression. To just ignore that and sit on the fence is not, imo, a left wing stance. It ignores the historic reality of the moment and lets the PP get on with its erosion of democracy. They are making more lists for arrests. The Guardia Civil have passed a document to the judge stating that the "Diada" Catalonia's national day, is rebellion. The priority for the left was to reject the harder of two evils. A kick min the teeth for Rajoy at this moment would be far more damaging to the right than a defeat of the independence movement, yet Podemos manouvred in a shared space with the PP and ciutadans. That is not to say they are right wing.

Their call for a "legal" referendum is totally hipocritical as they know very well that it will never ever be allowed by the spanish state parties, never. Fachin is not incoherent, 500,000 people saw the video in 24 hours and no one is calling it incoherent.

What will the Podemos' stance achieve? Will they come out strengthened? Will the extreme right come out strengthened? Podemos lost 40,000 votes, probably due to Fachin's video. What is the space Podemos hopes to expand when the right wing in Spain feel that their repression is justified in the election results in which Podemos are "counted"?

Pablo Iglesias and other prominent Podemos figures have repeatedly referred to the imprisoned Catalan politicians as political prisoners. After the police violence in Catalonia, Podemos MEPs asked for Spain to be sanctioned for the violation of fundamental rights under European law through police repression. Your criticism really does boil down to the fact that Podemos aren't backing a UDI without a legitimate democratic vote.

 

[butchersapron]

The problem was last week in Madrid, The mayoress Manuela Carmena of the Podemos group of allies was ordered by The PP economy minister to administer massive austerity measures in the ccity caouncil. In order to comply with her orders she had to remove any dissent from her own side, which she dutifully did by sacking Carlos Sanchez Mato.

Manuela Carmena destituye a Carlos Sánchez Mato como concejal de Economía por los recortes que impone Montoro

So, again - Podemos in catalonia don't reject austerity?

 

[Anudder Oik]

And what about JxC, do they 'reject' austerity?

EDIT: And considering your post below are JxC left wing in your view?

That goes without saying. The independentist movement is represented in three parties. Anticapitalist CUP, centre left ERC and right wing conservative JXC. An uncomfortable alliance that is pitted against the larger spanish state and its fascist king.

The politicising effect that the procés has had here will make it harder for austerity measures to be implemented in the case that a new republic is constituted. What is very clear is that while chained to monolithic Spain, no pregress will "ever" be made.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Pablo Iglesias and other prominent Podemos figures have repeatedly referred to the imprisoned Catalan politicians as political prisoners. After the police violence in Catalonia, Podemos MEPs asked for Spain to be sanctioned for the violation of fundamental rights under European law through police repression. Your criticism really does boil down to the fact that Podemos aren't backing a UDI without a legitimate democratic vote.

No, It's about them not seriously tackling the real threat.

 

[J Ed]

No, It's about them not seriously tackling the real threat.

How? Literally what would you have them do differently?

 

[Anudder Oik]

So, again - Podemos in catalonia don't reject austerity?

Podemos in Catalonia are a satalite of the Madrid group. What is deemed correct in Madrid will be fored on the catalan version. Madrid ceased Fachin. He's worth looking up.

 

[redsquirrel]

That goes without saying. The independentist movement is represented in three parties. Anticapitalist CUP, centre left ERC and right wing conservative JXC. An uncomfortable alliance that is pitted against the larger spanish state and its fascist king.

The politicising effect that the procés has had here will make it harder for austerity measures to be implemented in the case that a new republic is constituted. What is very clear is that while chained to monolithic Spain, no pregress will "ever" be made.

What goes without saying? You call JxC conservative and then in the next paragraph talk about how independence is anti-austerity so are JxC pro- or anti-austerity?

 

[Anudder Oik]

How? Literally what would you have them do differently?

I agree with Fachin's view. This election was not so much to legitimize the DUI but to delegitamise the fascistic spanish right PP and their aggresive assault on democracy and the catalans, which will afterwards be turned on other regions. Fachin says that after this election, once democracy has been defended, he wouldn't himself vote independence. I think that stance is coherent given the circumstances. there is real shit going down here. They are going to imprison loads of people.

 

[Anudder Oik]

What goes without saying? You call JxC conservative and then in the next paragraph talk about how independence is anti-austerity so are JxC pro- or anti-austerity?

JXC are conservative and pro austerity. I vote CUP.

 

[J Ed]

Podemos in Catalonia are a satalite of the Madrid group. What is deemed correct in Madrid will be fored on the catalan version. Madrid ceased Fachin. He's worth looking up.

Fachin called for people to vote for other parties, even worse he said that voting for Podemos is equivalent to voting for Rajoy. Podemos rightly got rid and you call this a 'purge'. Reminds me of the sort of ridiculous language used by our own casta when democratic process is followed within the Labour Party and it doesn't go according to their exact preferences.

 

[J Ed]

JXC are conservative and pro austerity. I vote CUP.

IU and Podemos get a greater vote share in Spain than CUP does in Catalonia, if ending austerity is your justification for supporting independence I'd suggest you either get another justification or change your mind.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Fachin called for people to vote for other parties, even worse he said that voting for Podemos is equivalent to voting for Rajoy. Podemos rightly got rid and you call this a 'purge'. Reminds me of the sort of ridiculous language used by our own casta when democratic process is followed within the Labour Party and it doesn't go according to their exact preferences.

You haven't taken in anything I have said. This was not a normal election in normal times.

 

[J Ed]

I have taken it in, I understand it. I just don't agree with it.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Why would they? If Catalonia gets independence, it will be the end of Spain as other regions such as the Basques, Galicians etc... would want independence too. That and the fact that Spain is kept afloat with Catalan money, if the Catalans leave, Spain would face economic ruin and bankruptcy.

It is a myth that Catalan money keeps Spain afloat. I doubt very much if Basques, and Galicians would follow a Catalan lead. Rajoy, and the PP still have a strong vote from the North. Pais Vasco (perhaps not so much - but, still), Cantabria, Asturias, and Galicia are traditionally right wing voters, where as Catalans are traditionally (and today - with a majority population of immigrants (rich, and poor)) in support of Left leaning governments.

Rajoy would love to leave Catalonia out of a national general election to consolidate the hold he has.

People are getting very confused about the vote for independence compared to a vote for an alternative government. A vote for independence is not a vote for a single party, or leader - it is simply a vote for total autonomy. That autonomy could as easily be lead from the Left as the Right. This election was for a local government. It seems the only way forward here is for a coalition of a Right and Left council. Then, perhaps a legitimate referendum for total autonomy - and who knows from there.

The fact remains that half of the population wish to remain within a union, but not under the control of the present PP. I think this is pretty much representative of the entire population of Spain today. Rajoy and the PP know this.

 

[Anudder Oik]

IU and Podemos get a greater vote share in Spain than CUP does in Catalonia, if ending austerity is your justification for supporting independence I'd suggest you either get another justification or change your mind.

Yes, The CUP vote went down considerably due to tactical voting. It will be up again next time, if they are not banned in the meantime by the spanish state.

What is worrying is that the Ciutadans, an extreme right wing party, got over a million votes, a large percentage of their vote is working class spanish migrants who give priority to their bigotted colonialist nationalism over their economic interests. they have moved here, not integrated and hate the Catalans.

Imagine if the scottish referendum had been swayed by millions of english nationalists who had moved to Scotland over the last decades, shunned scottish culture and voted for a colonial governor, and you will understand what is going on here with Arrimadas and Ciutadans.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Yes, The CUP vote went down considerably due to tactical voting. It will be up again next time, if they are not banned in the meantime by the spanish state.

What is worrying is that the Ciutadans, an extreme right wing party, got over a million votes, a large percentage of their vote is working class spanish migrants who give priority to their bigotted colonialist nationalism over their economic interests. they have moved here, not integrated and hate the Catalans.

Just for once, can you give some value to your words?

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Nobody seems to want to explain what exactly independence means.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

Yes, The CUP vote went down considerably due to tactical voting. It will be up again next time, if they are not banned in the meantime by the spanish state.

What is worrying is that the Ciutadans, an extreme right wing party, got over a million votes, a large percentage of their vote is working class spanish migrants who give priority to their bigotted colonialist nationalism over their economic interests. they have moved here, not integrated and hate the Catalans.

Imagine if the scottish referendum had been swayed by millions of english nationalists who had moved to Scotland over the last decades, shunned scottish culture and voted for a colonial governor, and you will understand what is going on here with Arrimadas and Ciutadans.

Actually, that is downright, Fascist ignorance.

 

[cathal marcs]

Here is my tuppenceworth, despite all the headlines of a historic night, fuck all has changed.

1) Catalonia isn't any more left than the rest of Spain, centre-right parties have more seats than left-wing parties: C's+JxC+PP= 74 seats, ERC+PSC+Comunes+CUP= 61 seats, and putting PSC in the left-wing camp is highly debatable. Nevertheless, the majority of the Catalan electorate are republican, and pro right to decide.

2) As I felt prior to the election, I still think a proper and legal referendum on the issue is the only way to unblock the impasse, there is a huge demand for one as even non-independence parties such as Podemos (in Comun/ or whatever they are calling themselves) also agree with the principle. If nationalists win, so be it, if not they should put and shut up. Sadly the rise of Cs and all their empty catchphrases of "dialogue"etc, will probably reject any type of referendum as they are probably further right than the PP despite a nice marketing campaign.

3) It is ironic that in the rest of Spain, Podemos(and their various blocs and alliances) supposedly want to break up Spain, but suddenly in the analysis in Catalan elections, they are put in the unionist camp. As always, the Spanish media have never been able/unwilling to differentiate between supporting the right to decide and supporting independence.

4) If anything has changed, I am quite worried about the rise of Cs, especially the number of youngsters that vote them. Will this trend will be followed in the rest of Spain? WIll they be seen as the alternative not only to PPSOE, but also Podemos?

 

[J Ed]

Here is my tuppenceworth, despite all the headlines of a historic night, fuck all has changed.

1) Catalonia isn't any more left than the rest of Spain, centre-right parties have more seats than left-wing parties: C's+JxC+PP= 74 seats, ERC+PSC+Comunes+CUP= 61 seats, and putting PSC in the left-wing camp is highly debatable. Nevertheless, the majority of the Catalan electorate are republican, and pro right to decide.

2) As I felt prior to the election, I still think a proper and legal referendum on the issue is the only way to unblock the impasse, there is a huge demand for one as even non-independence parties such as Podemos (in Comun/ or whatever they are calling themselves) also agree with the principle. If nationalists win, so be it, if not they should put and shut up. Sadly the rise of Cs and all their empty catchphrases of "dialogue"etc, will probably reject any type of referendum as they are probably further right than the PP despite a nice marketing campaign.

3) It is ironic that in the rest of Spain, Podemos(and their various blocs and alliances) supposedly want to break up Spain, but suddenly in the analysis in Catalan elections, they are put in the unionist camp. As always, the Spanish media have never been able/unwilling to differentiate between supporting the right to decide and supporting independence.

4) If anything has changed, I am quite worried about the rise of Cs, especially the number of youngsters that vote them. Will this trend will be followed in the rest of Spain? WIll they be seen as the alternative not only to PPSOE, but also Podemos?

Good post.

 

[J Ed]

Particularly the 4th point, the rise of Ciudadanos as an actually successful bourgeois millennial political party is an interesting one and not a phenomenon that I think I understand very well.

If anyone has anything interesting on Ciudadanos in English or Spanish please do share it.

 

[cathal marcs]

Particularly the 4th point, the rise of Ciudadanos as an actually successful bourgeois millennial political party is an interesting one and not a phenomenon that I think I understand very well.

I blame vacuous hipster culture!

 

[Threshers_Flail]

Particularly the 4th point, the rise of Ciudadanos as an actually successful bourgeois millennial political party is an interesting one and not a phenomenon that I think I understand very well.

I think a lot of their support may come from them being seen as less Spanish, more Northern European than the other parties. They're seen as hard headed, liberal and modern, and not yet corrupt. From my experience, a lot of Spanish people have a "only in Spain" attitude to a lot of their problems, and may feel they need saving from themselves.

 

[cathal marcs]

I think a lot of their support may come from them being seen as less Spanish, more Northern European than the other parties. They're seen as hard headed, liberal and modern, and not yet corrupt. From my experience, a lot of Spanish people have a "only in Spain" attitude to a lot of their problems, and may feel they need saving from themselves.

The thing is, when Cs had their celebration, it was more akin to a football match with their cheerleaders chanting "Yo soy español, español, español". Same turd, wrapped in a trendy new package.