Spanish Political News
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Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Brilliant, thanks.The feeling on the ground is widespread, palpable and a little intoxicating. It is exciting to live thru this. Everyone I speak to is talking about Independence and is indignant about the repressive measures of the state. Stuff is going off every day and the tension is building. "We've had enough of this corrupt regime" they say, we need a divorce with the corrupt-right wing heirs of franco.
My mother in law, who is not political, is determined to vote, as are the whole catalan family. This is going to be big. The central government's shitty "regime of 78" attitude I think is pushing people to vote. 78 was the transition year which didn't root out the fascist judges, attorneys, military and church. They are still there, except in Cataluña where they have been gradually edged out by a more progressive people. The referendum is like the icing on the cake to get rid of that baggage and assign it to the dustbin of history.
IMO catalans are a soft and comfortable people, so it remains to see how much civil disobedience occurs on sunday. Tomorrow, the student strikes begin and we all know that the spanish police, to the number of 10,000 or more, have been drafted in to physically block the schools and electoral colleges on sunday. The judges have ordered the catalan police to do this dirty work for them but, by their reaction, I would say they are reluctant to turn on their entire people, despite their record against strikes. I know a Mosso, he is progressive and independentista.
The orders for the police are to place guards on all the colleges (voting places) on friday, two days before the referendum. The students may do mass occupations before that.
It's Spain's repressive forces against the will of the masses. If the Catalans are going to put their money where their mouth is, it's going to be a massive historical event.
I'll be there.
Riklet
procrastinación
Going to have to do a bit more than whinge about how hard done by Catalunya is, do jazz hands and bang a few pots and pans if they really expect a "divorce" from Spain though. Are "soft and comfortable people" really going to take on the forces of the Spanish state? (and if they do, which they may well, wtf is going to happen on a national/european level?)
I think this idea of this progressive Catalunya is interesting but trumpeted mainly by Catalans. Surprise surprise, it's the whole regional pride and solidarity which makes Spain so special. Any backup here @lo siento and Favelado? Catalunya is governed by the same class of corrupt politicians as the rest of Spain and has most of the same problems as other populous regions, including high unemployment, low wages, mas privatisation, issues with social integration, issues with tourism, issues with water etc. I'm sure education is moving in progressive directions, seeing as how much it seems to annoy right-wingers in Spain, but then maybe it has in plenty other parts of Spain too?
I am vary wary of buying into this liberal nationalistic retoric about how different Catalunya is from oppressive Facist Spain. Is this progressive politics or liberal grand nation state actors nonsense. Where does real progressive Catalunya go from here in any case? Cos they've sure as hell been sold out very well by, surprise surprise..... their own Catalan ruling class for a good few centuries. Drive along any motorways in Catalunya and look at the bill you're paying them!
I think this idea of this progressive Catalunya is interesting but trumpeted mainly by Catalans. Surprise surprise, it's the whole regional pride and solidarity which makes Spain so special. Any backup here @lo siento and Favelado? Catalunya is governed by the same class of corrupt politicians as the rest of Spain and has most of the same problems as other populous regions, including high unemployment, low wages, mas privatisation, issues with social integration, issues with tourism, issues with water etc. I'm sure education is moving in progressive directions, seeing as how much it seems to annoy right-wingers in Spain, but then maybe it has in plenty other parts of Spain too?
I am vary wary of buying into this liberal nationalistic retoric about how different Catalunya is from oppressive Facist Spain. Is this progressive politics or liberal grand nation state actors nonsense. Where does real progressive Catalunya go from here in any case? Cos they've sure as hell been sold out very well by, surprise surprise..... their own Catalan ruling class for a good few centuries. Drive along any motorways in Catalunya and look at the bill you're paying them!
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
I totally support Catalonia's right to self-determination, but there's no doubt Catalan politicians/elite have been just as filthily corrupt at Spanish ones. The Pujol family has stolen hundreds of millions, and I don't buy the romantic vision that @Annuder Oink paints of the situation. The behaviour of the PP in recent days has been disgusting, but it still remains a fact that a slim majority of Catalans are against independence. The referendum will produce a "yes" vote but only because pro-independistas are the ones who recognise the vote and will participate.The idea that Catalan nationalism is always progressive isn't borne out by its recent history. Catalan governments have frequently been right-wing, and nasty in terms of policy and rhetoric to any Catalan who doesn't support their long-term goals of a new state. Soft and comfortable are not words I would associate with Catalans either. In a country that is generally surprisingly dry and cold to foreigners when they get here (at least outside Andalusia), Catalans are probably the hardest and coldest of all.
The independence question has been consistently handled in an idiotic fashion by Madrid. They could have held a referendum and won it by a mile a few years ago. Instead, the more they have shouted "No" at Catalans, the more it hass pushed the numbers higher for independence. Sending in the police and behaving exactly like the Franco regime would have done is only going to make things worse. Throw in occasional shouts over the years of Spanish generals of "Send in the tanks" and you'd be running for the hills to get away from everything Castilian too if you were them. When I lived in Barcelona a few years ago, you could say that a third of people felt only Catalan, a third felt only Spanish, and a third felt both. With a staggering lack of emotional intelligence, successive Spanish governments have ensured that Catalan balconies are now more resplendent with estellada flags than ever before.
The referendum result will not accurately reflect the true feeling of the Catalan nation. The Rajoy government's disgraceful aggression and lack of common sense is unacceptable. The only legitimate course of action would be to have a state-sanctioned referendum that all of Catalonia is willing to participate in.
That won't happen without a change of government. There won't be an imminent change of government and things will just get messier and messier.
The independence question has been consistently handled in an idiotic fashion by Madrid. They could have held a referendum and won it by a mile a few years ago. Instead, the more they have shouted "No" at Catalans, the more it hass pushed the numbers higher for independence. Sending in the police and behaving exactly like the Franco regime would have done is only going to make things worse. Throw in occasional shouts over the years of Spanish generals of "Send in the tanks" and you'd be running for the hills to get away from everything Castilian too if you were them. When I lived in Barcelona a few years ago, you could say that a third of people felt only Catalan, a third felt only Spanish, and a third felt both. With a staggering lack of emotional intelligence, successive Spanish governments have ensured that Catalan balconies are now more resplendent with estellada flags than ever before.
The referendum result will not accurately reflect the true feeling of the Catalan nation. The Rajoy government's disgraceful aggression and lack of common sense is unacceptable. The only legitimate course of action would be to have a state-sanctioned referendum that all of Catalonia is willing to participate in.
That won't happen without a change of government. There won't be an imminent change of government and things will just get messier and messier.
Jeremiah18.17
Well-Known Member
The interest in this situation is not in the substance of Catalan nationalism or separatism, or its history, or even the likely turn of events (at this stage, varying degrees of conflict and disturbance followed by messy compromise that satisfies nobody) but in the possibilities that might open up when a significant mass of people come into direct conflict with the forces of the state in a modern, Western, industrialised nation......?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
One thing that surprises me is the seeming lack of opinion polls in 2017. I've seen the much quoted Centre for Opinion Studies which showed 41 for 49 against, but few others. Thought there'd be more, plotting the impact of the national government's actions on public opinion. Am I missing something? The Scottish ref had them pretty much every day in the latter stages.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
I'm not talking about the CIU politicians, I'm speaking about the atmosphere in the street, amongst the broader people which is a mass movement. You are right about the borgoise politicians, Arthur Más jumped on the Independence bandwagon very late, around the time the corruption cases like the Palau de la musica started to come out.
You do know that the anti-capitalist CUP have loads of councillors and even Mayors all over Catalunya, don't you?
I was at a CUP meeting the other day and David Fernandez was quite clear about how this struggle is changing people politically. In an Independent Catalunya the struggle for progressive politics would have a boost.
Barcelona's fire brigade staged this act today and are providing a security cordon for the protests.
Massive student protests all over the territory today
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Fucking flatten the fascists in Sant Jaume on Oct 1st. I'd get a flight if I wasn't working.
Having been based in Spain for many years now, I can sort of claim an inside perspective. However, none of us posting here really have that perspective - we are neutral observers. Nothing more. I have been speaking with good friends from all over Spain (Spanish friends), who now find themselves settled in Catalunya, and asking them how they see things. It as close as I can get to any real understanding.
My own personal viewpoint comes from my own experiences of time spent in Catalunya. Barcelona, Sitges, in the mountains, Vic and Manresa. They are not pleasant memories. The first time I was spat at just for being English, or not Catalan? Robbed of everything Three times. My view may be a little distorted. I spent a few weeks in a small village in the mountains about 150KM North of Barcelona whilst football was happening. Don't recall if it was World Cup, or European, but all the locals in the bars were booing the Spanish national team even though half the squad was on the Barca books!
This irrational, totally illogical and misguided Catalan nationalism is what spoiled my time there more than the xenophobia and street thieves supported by the police. It just made no sense. When was Catalunya ever better off as an independent country?
They moan that they are poor, when the reality is they are better off than most of Spain. Next to Valencia it is the most corrupt place in Spain I have ever spent time in. There is nothing to gain from independence other than a very expensive badge. Like Brexit, local people will realise this a year, or Two down the line.
I say fuck them. Like I say fuck anyone who voted in favour of Brexit. They vote on greed/selfishness and nothing more, and always lose.
I will tell you what my Spanish friends living in Catalunya think about the situation another time, but you can bet it is something a bit more personal than how us 'neutrals' feel.
My own personal viewpoint comes from my own experiences of time spent in Catalunya. Barcelona, Sitges, in the mountains, Vic and Manresa. They are not pleasant memories. The first time I was spat at just for being English, or not Catalan? Robbed of everything Three times. My view may be a little distorted. I spent a few weeks in a small village in the mountains about 150KM North of Barcelona whilst football was happening. Don't recall if it was World Cup, or European, but all the locals in the bars were booing the Spanish national team even though half the squad was on the Barca books!
This irrational, totally illogical and misguided Catalan nationalism is what spoiled my time there more than the xenophobia and street thieves supported by the police. It just made no sense. When was Catalunya ever better off as an independent country?
They moan that they are poor, when the reality is they are better off than most of Spain. Next to Valencia it is the most corrupt place in Spain I have ever spent time in. There is nothing to gain from independence other than a very expensive badge. Like Brexit, local people will realise this a year, or Two down the line.
I say fuck them. Like I say fuck anyone who voted in favour of Brexit. They vote on greed/selfishness and nothing more, and always lose.
I will tell you what my Spanish friends living in Catalunya think about the situation another time, but you can bet it is something a bit more personal than how us 'neutrals' feel.
Last time I got robbed in Barcelona I headed to Madrid as soon as I made the bus fair. I set out a sketch to draw with an explanation about how I had been robbed of everything in Barcelona. Think I made about €200 in 30 minutes. Went to the embassy with a carrier bag of coins to pay for a new passport.
It is possibly more about Madrid V Barcelona, rather than a fight for real independence from a united Spain. I don't know, and never really expect to know.
I am now in Portugal where everybody is just proud to be Portuguese whether from North, or South. They mock Spain and it's Catalan, Pais Vasco, Galicia differences. They see no good reason for it. Neither do I. On the other hand, Portugal doesn't have the same deep history, and as a republic they have a very different reason to unite.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
They will have at least 6,000 baying for their blood and there are plenty of backstreets to ambush them for interesting conversations in the gothic quarter. I'm tempted to take the train there but there may be work to do also further down the coast where I am based.
Seriously,Stanley Edwards, what the fuck are you on about? If you were robbed of everything in Barcelona it wasn't by Catalans.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Why did it make you anti-catalinsta?
Only a thouand years of history, a language, culture etc. (or in the case of the Basques, make that maybe 3000 years)
Ungrateful cunts should be proud and happy to have been colonised, innit.
Riklet
procrastinación
Lol probably those pesky forrins, eh? I've had an offduty Catalan copper telling me vast majority of thieves they nick in Barcelona are surprise surprise... mor roma gita sudac.... CATALAN. How shocking! This is a perfect example of the kind of shit that all nationalists everywhere will rattle off.
And Stan, I love Portugal, but they are typical of a small ignored country in that they talk a lot about their big bad neighbour Spain and have a lot of views about Spanish people. I don't think anyone in Spain pays that much attention to Portugal, rightly or wrongly, and it pisses them off. Wait til you get some Portuguese started on how jolly great it was back in Ye Olde Days when they had an empire and things were glorious and the Angolans knew their place etc and you'll miss Spain a lot haha.
Anyway I know there are progressive things happening in Catalunya and as Favelado says, nowt like hearing some of the loony opinions across the rest of Spain to make your sympathise.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I can see how this can happen tbh, I remember being told by otherwise sound Asturians about how 'they hate us' in reference to Catalans but on the other hand some of the stuff that Catalan Nationalists come out with is just disgustingly classist and nasty and if you look at the early 20th Century origins of ruling class Catalan Nationalism (and Basque Nationalism) you can see exactly where that comes from.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
A fair percentage of my family are either Catalan or settled in Barcelona for longer than your memory can stretch. Fuck you. I'm not a neutral observer.
They, and I, are also violently anti-fascist.
Fuck off with your pitiful, nonsensical ramblings based, as usual, on fleeting incidents in your personal life from which you were glad to gain (200 euros in 30 minutes). I suggest you look at your own, ill-informed, self-centredness.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
How do you know?
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I think you'll find Portugal does have the same deep history as Spain, it's just you don't know about it.
If you knew Portugal was united with Spain for a time, you've forgotten it.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
When I lived there I had Portuguese friends who were vociferously pro-Gallego separatist, pro-ETA and not in the slightest bit "proud to be Portuguese".
Sorry for upsetting people again.
Probably not a good idea to mention Portugal in this thread. As for my own 'self-centered' P.O.V, well, sorry again, but I think everyone writing here is writing from their own perspective even if they think they are representing a mass.
I have just been talking with a very good friend. My oldest, and dearest friend in Spain. She is originally from Salamanca, but has been very happily living in Catalunya for some years now - from my own P.O.V. she is the only good thing about the place
In her own words...
'The Spanish government is threatening in an abusive way, it is very sad...they are using censorship methods that I thought were left behind, back in the dictatorship era'.
She then continued to explain how her family in Salamanca were reading (and, believing) hugely corrupted media stories totally different to her own experience of the situation in reality. It seems the Spanish government are just shooting themselves in the back. Which makes me wonder if they actually want Catalunya to leave in a way which will be perceived as being against their will.
I fully understand why any people would want out of a system that is hugely and openly corrupt and unfair, but doubt very much if a Catalan parliament would be any different. I am no fan of Nationalism, and Nationalism is the only thing I can see in this.
That is my own 'self-centered' P.O.V. My friend has the right to vote. She is going to vote for independence (if the vote happens). I love her to bits, so fully respect her choice even if it isn't the choice I would make. 'Catalan people are peaceful and stubborn' she tells me. From all I have watched during the past 15 years, or so, Catalunya has been edging towards independence gradually year by year. I think now is their time to choose.
Probably not a good idea to mention Portugal in this thread. As for my own 'self-centered' P.O.V, well, sorry again, but I think everyone writing here is writing from their own perspective even if they think they are representing a mass.
I have just been talking with a very good friend. My oldest, and dearest friend in Spain. She is originally from Salamanca, but has been very happily living in Catalunya for some years now - from my own P.O.V. she is the only good thing about the place
In her own words...'The Spanish government is threatening in an abusive way, it is very sad...they are using censorship methods that I thought were left behind, back in the dictatorship era'.
She then continued to explain how her family in Salamanca were reading (and, believing) hugely corrupted media stories totally different to her own experience of the situation in reality. It seems the Spanish government are just shooting themselves in the back. Which makes me wonder if they actually want Catalunya to leave in a way which will be perceived as being against their will.
I fully understand why any people would want out of a system that is hugely and openly corrupt and unfair, but doubt very much if a Catalan parliament would be any different. I am no fan of Nationalism, and Nationalism is the only thing I can see in this.
That is my own 'self-centered' P.O.V. My friend has the right to vote. She is going to vote for independence (if the vote happens). I love her to bits, so fully respect her choice even if it isn't the choice I would make. 'Catalan people are peaceful and stubborn' she tells me. From all I have watched during the past 15 years, or so, Catalunya has been edging towards independence gradually year by year. I think now is their time to choose.
I can't see any good in any form of Nationalism except in exceptional circumstances where a country needs to unite in defense.
--/if that is what you were asking...
sim667
All aboard the 303 bus.
Sorry for upsetting people again.
Probably not a good idea to mention Portugal in this thread. As for my own 'self-centered' P.O.V, well, sorry again, but I think everyone writing here is writing from their own perspective even if they think they are representing a mass.
I have just been talking with a very good friend. My oldest, and dearest friend in Spain. She is originally from Salamanca, but has been very happily living in Catalunya for some years now - from my own P.O.V. she is the only good thing about the place
'The Spanish government is threatening in an abusive way, it is very sad...they are using censorship methods that I thought were left behind, back in the dictatorship era'.
She then continued to explain how her family in Salamanca were reading (and, believing) hugely corrupted media stories totally different to her own experience of the situation in reality. It seems the Spanish government are just shooting themselves in the back. Which makes me wonder if they actually want Catalunya to leave in a way which will be perceived as being against their will.
I fully understand why any people would want out of a system that is hugely and openly corrupt and unfair, but doubt very much if a Catalan parliament would be any different. I am no fan of Nationalism, and Nationalism is the only thing I can see in this.
That is my own 'self-centered' P.O.V. My friend has the right to vote. She is going to vote for independence (if the vote happens). I love her to bits, so fully respect her choice even if it isn't the choice I would make. 'Catalan people are peaceful and stubborn' she tells me. From all I have watched during the past 15 years, or so, Catalunya has been edging towards independence gradually year by year. I think now is their time to choose.
I first became familiar with Catalunya at 4, I'm now 34, and I've always known there to be a strong independence movement there. There seems to be quite a split over independence vs remaining, but from a visual standpoint (i.e. flags and posters in the area) I wouldn't be surprised if indepence comes out top overall in a referendum.
From what I'm hearing from my folks at the moment, Madrid seems to be using some underhanded tactics to try and control the vote and the area, things that I would have thought belonged back in the dictatorship era. Apparently the Guardia have taken over local police in large parts of Catalunya currently.
I'm also not a massive fan of nationalism, or the notion of national identity generally, but if a region wants a smaller government for its own governance and locality, I can understand the appeal in that.
I do worry this will get messy, but it also has been a long time coming. Catalonians tend to be quite a strong willed independent people, whilst laid back and friendly, they will band together.
doodlelogic
arbitrary message here
If Catalonia became independent, would they take the Balearics with them?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
They probably revert to the newly Brexited Britain. War of the Spanish Succession and all that.
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