Several people shot dead in Plymouth 12 August 2021

[MickiQ]

Being a trump supporter is a political/ideological position.

I don't think it is tbh, true political/ideological positions are trying to achieve a goal of some kind (be it positive or negative). I think most Trumpers are drawn to him out of a sense of rage and entitlement they would probably have trouble articulating if they actually had to. He appeals to the sort of people who get outraged when they see someone whom they consider their inferiors doing well and contrast it with their own struggles.
He is the epitome of what these people might like to be loud, brash, arrogant, utterly disdainful of others yet apparently successful.
Incels are just another side of the same coin, In their minds, they're alone because feminism is ruining the world and denying them their 'right' to effectively own a woman and not because they're unpleasant assholes that no sensible woman would go anywhere near. They see themselves as the nice guy who gets relegated to the friend zone or even the creep zone because women are cruel heartless creatures who don't appreciate what a good chap they are.
I mean seriously what woman could resist a man who could even consider shooting a child for fucks sake?
As for this cunt in Plymouth, I don't think he was making a statement or taking a stand, he was just a nasty self-entitled prick lashing out and the world has been slightly improved now that he is no longer in it, It is just a tragedy that 5 other people died along with him.

 

[SpookyFrank]

How could the state ‘meaningfully act’ to prevent this type of event?

It couldn't, not in its current form. Attenuated libertarianism cannot win an argument against full-fat libertarianism, of which the logical conclusion is that it's perfectly reasonable to murder people if your will is thwarted in any way.

 

[Ax^]

How could the state ‘meaningfully act’ to prevent this type of event? What would be the practical and specific measures? How would they work? Who would carry out and enforce a strategy to undermine individualism and social darwinism?

I genuinely do not see how this type of approach could even be considered under the current system. I also think the things you are talking about are manifest and produced in society at every level and takes on million of forms.

if you give someone a firearm licease, ever year do a quick google search and social media search on the individual

if he whole online presence is being angry with women, looking up killing people and sprouting manifestos online

best to call him in for an interview at least to explain himself

fuck me if Jernos can find this in a few after a shooting its not being hidden

 

[two sheds]

I don't think it is tbh, true political/ideological positions are trying to achieve a goal of some kind (be it positive or negative). I think most Trumpers are drawn to him out of a sense of rage and entitlement they would probably have trouble articulating if they actually had to. He appeals to the sort of people who get outraged when they see someone whom they consider their inferiors doing well and contrast it with their own struggles.
He is the epitome of what these people might like to be loud, brash, arrogant, utterly disdainful of others yet apparently successful.
Incels are just another side of the same coin, In their minds, they're alone because feminism is ruining the world and denying them their 'right' to effectively own a woman and not because they're unpleasant assholes that no sensible woman would go anywhere near. They see themselves as the nice guy who gets relegated to the friend zone or even the creep zone because women are cruel heartless creatures who don't appreciate what a good chap they are.
I mean seriously what woman could resist a man who could even consider shooting a child for fucks sake?
As for this cunt in Plymouth, I don't think he was making a statement or taking a stand, he was just a nasty self-entitled prick lashing out and the world has been slightly improved now that he is no longer in it, It is just a tragedy that 5 other people died along with him.

Agree with the bits on incels and final paragraph. As you say though it's two sides of the trump coin. But I don't think you can gloss over the MAGA stuff, that whole world view is a particular political statement, whether they think it through it or not. It's the political view that led to the Capitol attack in the US, and what they intend if trump gets in again.

 

[BigMoaner]

Incels aren't religiously or political motivated. They're just cunts.

And saying they're just cunts seeks to disallow any examination of why they are/do what they are/do.

They are cunts. Cant get laid=shoot five year old. Cunt. But they are not just cunts, as you say. There's everything else thats conspired, all the factors mentioned, up to that point (including their own choices).

 

[BigMoaner]

I think its assumed that explaining and finding out the reasons stuff like this happens negates personal responsibility, when it doesn't. The two are not mutually exclusive

 

[The39thStep]

Good basic exploration of the incel world and some of the issues discussed on here

 

[editor]

Fucking hell. Well over half a million shotgun certificates are issued every year.

 

[Ax^]

with a population of over 66 million you would think

keep an eye on half a million would not be that difficult

 

[Ax^]

all this shows is we should be very glad they no longer allow pistol firearm liceases

 

[likesfish]

The range of a shotgun is pretty much down to the type and load of the cartridge in it, rather than the gun itself.

Thats about the max effective range of a slug a 12 bore bullets yanks use them for hunting.
Practical shotguners use the for the sniper round.
If turns out to be one of them expect all their toys to go section 5 and nothing of value will be lost.

 

[BigMoaner]

That seemed very true of this person and his gripes about his teenage years not living up to some kind of movie narrative.

that's part of the problem init. the story of "how things should/must be". based on nothing other than what they've been told and tell themselves.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Fucking hell. Well over half a million shotgun certificates are issued every year.

Doesn't surprise me, between the 150K or so farms out there and then all the recreational clay/hunting shooters.

 

[Pickman's model]

Think this is about right in terms of the mindset/social conditions that are producing this:

Tell you one thing, you'd never have seen a t1000 with that beard or hair

 

[Ax^]

Would see quite a few proud boys and alt right angry men groups with that look

thankfully these types are keeped busy with football instead of firearms in the united kingdom

 

[Pickman's model]

Is that universal instruction for men?

I've had a few instructions to "Get your hair cut" in my time, too.

Some people are improved by a beard. Some people look like 'loons with a beard. Yer man fits into the latter category. It's no great surprise that he was frustrated if he insisted on looking like a twat. It's not like everyone has a right to a partner, but as even Ian Brady could manage it yer man was a loser indeed.

 

[two sheds]

Fair play, although I'm not sure that giving them fashion advice is the solution

 

[glitch hiker]

And that's why it's 'not terrorism'. Because to meaningfully act to prevent this kind of shit would mean attacking the same individualism and social darwinism that underpins the right-neoliberal political orthodoxy.

It's what they call stochastic terrorism, where seemingly random shootings happen. "He had no history. He was always a good lad" or "lone wolf individual shooter" (as opposed to being cultural as they try to portray it when it's minority perpetrators). But in trruth these events have a cause: the radicalisation of toxic masculinity now raging unchecked on social media. People like Jordan Peterson who makes an absolute fortune on patreon, or Dave Rubin, rich enough ot buy a million dollar home from his social media grfit, or Sargon of Akkad who got rich and famous off the back of the gamgergate dogpile, and so on. A dismal list of dangerous people all of whom, as we have seen, are namechecked in the browser history of people like this shooter.

 

[Ax^]

at least warn them about the neck beards , so don't have to look at them

 

[Pickman's model]

It's what they call stochastic terrorism, where seemingly random shootings happen. "He had no history. He was always a good lad" or "lone wolf individual shooter" (as opposed to being cultural as they try to portray it when it's minority perpetrators). But in trruth these events have a cause: the radicalisation of toxic masculinity now raging unchecked on social media. People like Jordan Peterson who makes an absolute fortune on patreon, or Dave Rubin, rich enough ot buy a million dollar home from his social media grfit, or Sargon of Akkad who got rich and famous off the back of the gamgergate dogpile, and so on. A dismal list of dangerous people all of whom, as we have seen, are namechecked in the browser history of people like this shooter.

I'm sure it'll come out that far from having no history he had quite some history. And to your list of people namechecked in his history I wouldn't be at all surprised if anders breivik appeared there too

 

[brogdale]

IOPC saying they'll investigate why, the OB having taken Davison's gun & licence from his following an accusation of assault, they then gave them back last month.

No wonder the Chief Cunstable was bigging up his force earlier.

 

[Pickman's model]

IOPC saying they'll investigate why, the OB having taken Davison's gun & licence from his following an accusation of assault, they then gave them back last July.

No wonder the Chief Cunstable was bigging up his force earlier.

Heads should roll. The narrative claiming this came out of nowhere starts to unravel

 

[8ball]

Heads should roll. The narrative claiming this came out of nowhere starts to unravel

I thought the narrative was that this came out of the 'incel' online culture thing.

 

[brogdale]

Details here:


They clearly checked his public SM carefully.

 

[Ax^]

. as i just broked my ketboard

 

[8ball]

more


it more interest how he managed it

Nope, that sentence won't do.

<edit: was expecting a quick edit to happen there - hope you haven't fallen down the toilet>

 

[Pickman's model]

I thought the narrative was that this came out of the 'incel' online culture thing.

You don't go from being an objectionable virgin with atrocious views to being a murderous ovwav overnight, there likely being a number of stages between which will have been observed by others around him. So yeh it came out of the incel shit. But that doesn't give the full story, which might be that over a period of time his views became more loopy and behaviour more erratic, with several instances of this noted.

 

[8ball]

You don't go from being an objectionable virgin with atrocious views to being a murderous ovwav overnight, there likely being a number of stages between which will have been observed by others around him. So yeh it came out of the incel shit. But that doesn't give the full story, which might be that over a period of time his views became more loopy and behaviour more erratic, with several instances of this noted.

That will come out. I don't think anyone will be under the impression he logged on a few dodgy websites last week and then this happened.

 

[BillRiver]

I sort of accidentally changed the minds of a few incels last year, or at least they told me I had.

I was a regular on a "pro-choice" suicide message board (before I rejoined Urban75 and stopped going there).

There were several self-identified incels on there. One day some of them started a thread debating whether women could be incels or not. I was interested, so I read the thread.

After a while it descended into long moany rants about alpha females and beta males, and the "league table" of attractiveness they all seemed to believe in. One of them blamed women for being "body fascists" only interested in muscular, slim, tall, good-looking men.

I wasn't trying to convert anyone but I tried to respectfully point out that if they are only interested in dating "alpha" and highly attractive women, maybe they were in fact the "body fascists".

Maybe if they made the effort to get to know some women who weren't "alpha" or "top league" they might find them to be highly attractive in other ways. Even if nothing romantic or sexual came of it, they might find it's not only possible but quite nice to be friends with some women!

I also suggested they pay more attention when out and about in public, as they'd soon see men and women with all sorts of body shapes and appearances partnered with all sorts of others.

Two of them told me openly, on the thread, that I'd make them rethink their attitudes. One more contacted me weeks later by PM to tell me about the changes in his behaviour inspired by reading and thinking about what I'd said.

I wasn't even consciously trying! I can't believe it's beyond our education system, or even social media companies, to do similar things on a bigger scale, with a bit of imagination, creativity, and effort.

 

[brogdale]

Details here:

View attachment 283475
They clearly checked his public SM carefully.

"...police contact with [the cunt] prior to the incident."

Here we go again.