Scottish independence in the light of the 2019 election

[isvicthere?]

My wife went to Edinburgh to visit her family just before the election. Almost everyone up there seems to think independence is now a matter not of if, but of when (and how).

The election of a rightwing UK government dedicated to ripping to shreds what´s left of civil society and the Welfare State, and pushing the country into a long-term damaging crash-out brexit is anathema to most Scots. I wouldn´t put Rajoy/Franco style send-in-the-bootboys tactics past Bozo (a la Catalonia), but nevertheless, it seems to me that Scottish independence is an idea whose time hasn´t just come, but is well overdue.

What do urbz think?

 

[brogdale]

Yeah, and City State London while we're at it...with a fucking great big wall up against the blue border of Reigate & Banstead etc....that they can pay for, the cunts.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

M I wouldn´t put Rajoy/Franco style send-in-the-bootboys tactics past Bozo (a la Catalonia),

There are many reasons to think that that won't happen. This is very different from the case of Catalonia. The Rajoy/Francoist types in Spain do not recognise the right of any group in Spain to self-determination ever. There has never been an official referendum in Catalonia, and it would be hard ever to have one without changing the Spanish constitution. Very different from the situation of Scotland, in which a unionist r/w UK govt did grant a referendum.

 

[Azrael]

I was a unionist, but the union's time is done. Born from the ruins of Darien to share profits from Empire, now the Empire's gone, so too has its reason for being. Overwhelming numbers ensure England will always dominate, and the English will never accept the Scottish veto necessary for any federalism worth the name.

With swathes of Labour seats choosing populist isolationism, England and Scotland's paths are now irreconcilable. If Scotland values what she has, she'll go, and go quickly.

 

[Azrael]

There are many reasons to think that that won't happen. This is very different from the case of Catalonia. The Rajoy/Francoist types in Spain do not recognise the right of any group in Spain to self-determination ever. There has never been an official referendum in Catalonia, and it would be hard ever to have one without changing the Spanish constitution. Very different from the situation of Scotland, in which a unionist r/w UK govt did grant a referendum.

Yes. I'm not complacent, but as bad as Johnson and his gang are, there's marked differences between the U.K. and a country that was a fascist dictatorship until the late '70s. I've nothing but admiration for how comprehensively Spain's rejected that legacy, but it casts a long shadow. As you say, Madrid's never accepted Catalonian secession in principle, and Catalonia did vote for a binding Spanish constitution.

Scottish secession's been accepted in principle for decades, the Claim of Right was accepted by Westminster as recently as 2018, and even Thatcher said that Whitehall would never dream of keeping Scotland yoked to England against her people's will. There's gonna be massive internal and external pressure for the SNP to guage that will one way or another, and swiftly, and Westminster's gotta decide if they want to shape the democratic process, or be pushed aside by it.

 

[Sue]

You know there's a long-running Indyref thread and another one on the Scottish GE results over in the Scotland forum, right...?

 

[danny la rouge]

My wife went to Edinburgh to visit her family just before the election. Almost everyone up there seems to think independence is now a matter not of if, but of when (and how).

The election of a rightwing UK government dedicated to ripping to shreds what´s left of civil society and the Welfare State, and pushing the country into a long-term damaging crash-out brexit is anathema to most Scots. I wouldn´t put Rajoy/Franco style send-in-the-bootboys tactics past Bozo (a la Catalonia), but nevertheless, it seems to me that Scottish independence is an idea whose time hasn´t just come, but is well overdue.

What do urbz think?

There’s a thread in the Scotland forum, which is still running about Indy ref 2. But pogofish aside, I’d like people to step away from rhetoric about Franco and such like.

Let’s first ask what the SNP will do: they put the case for a referendum in 2020. Johnson will turn it down. Those steps seem obvious. How Johnson responds besides that denial will influence the tone of what happens next.

The SNP are no doubt expecting a refusal from Johnson, and that will form part of their campaign towards and in the 2021 Holyrood elections. In which the SNP will ni doubt again be returned as the government. They will therefore have a run of mandates to point towards (which they already do have).

Johnson is not popular in Scotland. The size of SNP majorities in what were last week marginal seats is remarkable. My home constituency, Stirling, was a Tory held marginal. It now has a thumping SNP majority on over 51% of the vote. A large portion of that is an anti Tory vote, specifically anti Johnson.

The antipathy to Johnson is what will fuel the independence debate. And into that will play the Brexit debate, which has been of a very different tone in Scotland. The electoral cultures North and South of the Border have diverged significantly. And I don’t think that should be underestimated.

 

[WouldBe]

If Scotland are given a second indy ref and the result is still no will Sturgeon just keep asking for another until she gets the answer she wants?

 

[isvicthere?]

There’s a thread in the Scotland forum, which is still running about Indy ref 2. But pogofish aside, I’d like people to step away from rhetoric about Franco and such like.
.

I did a search. There are several threads about the Indyref, but I started this one specifically as a result of this week´s election.

I don´t use Franco references lightly, but here in Spain Rajoy sent the bootboys of the Guardia Civli in to wreak real terror on the 1-0 protestors in Catalonia in 2017. It was clearly reminiscent of Franco´s era, and I wouldn´t put it past Johnson to be equally brutal.

 

[isvicthere?]

You know there's a long-running Indyref thread and another one on the Scottish GE results over in the Scotland forum, right...?

I know. See comment above.

 

[Idris2002]

Fifty years ago, the bootboys were sent into Belfast and Derry. . .

Does the Scottish first minister have full control of the police service? My impression is that the riot cops who tore up Barcelona were under Madrid's command.
.

 

[ska invita]

Yeah, and City State London while we're at it...with a fucking great big wall up against the blue border of Reigate & Banstead etc....that they can pay for, the cunts.

Put a wall up where?

London is not much different from the rest of England

 

[Sue]

I did a search. There are several threads about the Indyref, but I started this one specifically as a result of this week´s election.

I don´t use Franco references lightly, but here in Spain Rajoy sent the bootboys of the Guardia Civli in to wreak real terror on the 1-0 protestors in Catalonia in 2017. It was clearly reminiscent of Franco´s era, and I wouldn´t put it past Johnson to be equally brutal.

I'm sorry but much as I dislike Johnson, this is bollocks.

 

[isvicthere?]

I'm sorry but much as I dislike Johnson, this is bollocks.

We shall see...

 

[brogdale]

London is not much different from the rest of England

Ooh...not really; by constituency GL = 67% Lab, 29% Con & 4%LD.

 

[Azrael]

If Scotland are given a second indy ref and the result is still no will Sturgeon just keep asking for another until she gets the answer she wants?

She'd resign, but the Scottish National Party will continue to make the case for independence; just as, if it goes the other way, iScotland will doubtless see either a reunification party or a party pushing for some kinda confederation with England.

 

[WouldBe]

Put a wall up where?

London is not much different from the rest of England

Watford

 

[Sasaferrato]

My wife went to Edinburgh to visit her family just before the election. Almost everyone up there seems to think independence is now a matter not of if, but of when (and how).

The election of a rightwing UK government dedicated to ripping to shreds what´s left of civil society and the Welfare State, and pushing the country into a long-term damaging crash-out brexit is anathema to most Scots. I wouldn´t put Rajoy/Franco style send-in-the-bootboys tactics past Bozo (a la Catalonia), but nevertheless, it seems to me that Scottish independence is an idea whose time hasn´t just come, but is well overdue.

What do urbz think?

This Scot thinks that independence is no nearer than it ever was. The last poll showed a slight increase in the NO voting intention.

Sturgeon can become as hysterical as she wishes, she wanted a 'once in generation' referendum, she got it and lost.

The future...

 

[Sue]

'Hysterical' Sasaferrato, really? Would you use that term about a man?

 

[Sasaferrato]

There’s a thread in the Scotland forum, which is still running about Indy ref 2. But pogofish aside, I’d like people to step away from rhetoric about Franco and such like.

Let’s first ask what the SNP will do: they put the case for a referendum in 2020. Johnson will turn it down. Those steps seem obvious. How Johnson responds besides that denial will influence the tone of what happens next.

The SNP are no doubt expecting a refusal from Johnson, and that will form part of their campaign towards and in the 2021 Holyrood elections. In which the SNP will ni doubt again be returned as the government. They will therefore have a run of mandates to point towards (which they already do have).

Johnson is not popular in Scotland. The size of SNP majorities in what were last week marginal seats is remarkable. My home constituency, Stirling, was a Tory held marginal. It now has a thumping SNP majority on over 51% of the vote. A large portion of that is an anti Tory vote, specifically anti Johnson.

The antipathy to Johnson is what will fuel the independence debate. And into that will play the Brexit debate, which has been of a very different tone in Scotland. The electoral cultures North and South of the Border have diverged significantly. And I don’t think that should be underestimated.

Were you aware that the Scottish government spent £2.5m on a panda enclosure at Edinburgh zoo this year? For pandas that go back to China at the end of next year.

£2.5m, spent by this purportedly socialist government, whilst we have people sleeping on the streets?

Edinburgh zoo is in no way connected to the Scottish government.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Might move to scotland in advance of next ref to vote yes purely in hope that it will make the old colonel pop

 

[redsquirrel]

Might move to scotland in advance of next ref to vote yes purely in hope that it will make the old colonel pop

I was just thinking the same thing.

 

[Proper Tidy]

I was just thinking the same thing.

If enough of us do it we could have a real effect

 

[Sue]

Were you aware that the Scottish government spent £2.5m on a panda enclosure at Edinburgh zoo this year? For pandas that go back to China at the end of next year.

£2.5m, spent by this purportedly socialist government, whilst we have people sleeping on the streets?

Edinburgh zoo is in no way connected to the Scottish government.

So you're concerned that the SNP isn't Socialist enough? I agree.

How did you vote BTW?

 

[Sasaferrato]

So you're concerned that the SNP isn't Socialist enough? I agree.

How did you vote BTW?

For once, Conservative. Normally Labour, but they have died here, as in so many places. Both MP and MSP were Labour for a long time. The Conservatives came second, Labour third and the Lib Dems a dismal fourth. I voted Labour not as pro-Labour, but anti-SNP.

Voted Labour in Council elections because she was an excellent councillor. She solved a problem for us in three weeks, whereas the previous (SNP) councillor had done nothing for four years. At the next election, we voted for her. Her majority was two. Next election, daughter and son in law also voted for her. Her majority was four. She retired from the Council, unfortunately.

 

[Sasaferrato]

'Hysterical' Sasaferrato, really? Would you use that term about a man?

Yep. In the blink of an eye. I do in fact.

I am aware of the Greek root of the word, however, it is now now used in 'literal' usage.

 

[DexterTCN]

Were you aware that the Scottish government spent £2.5m on a panda enclosure at Edinburgh zoo this year? For pandas that go back to China at the end of next year.

£2.5m, spent by this purportedly socialist government, whilst we have people sleeping on the streets?

Edinburgh zoo is in no way connected to the Scottish government.

Sas every country has to pay for pandas, China owns them and they say who gets them, do some research. And no-place gets them without a proper place for them to stay.

Also...every place that gets them...turns a big profit.

And also...only pandas in the UK, aren't they?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Check them for spyware

 

[JimW]

Check them for spyware

It's two highly trained State Security agents in fab fur.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's two highly trained State Security agents in fab fur.

Explains why they don't like fucking each other