Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh it's utter lunacy.
[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)
- Thread starter Kate Sharpley
- Start date
Athos
Well-Known Member
And is a good example of where polarisation leads. People grasping at straws for shit to fling at 'the other side'.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I can't believe I am fucking reading this. people are repeating a conspiracy about lgbt sexual politics' being an agenda by the state. As if MI5 don't already have influence and they have to use trans politics to do so!! All this fucking subtext about these 'shadowy elites' earning vast sums as well, hmmm wonder who could be being talked about there? Another discriminated against group? Surely not!
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
...
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Nice one
Well-Known Member
Nobody has done that though, at least not today.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
at least not yet...
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Think there's some seriously confused thinking going on in some quarters around this.
People can be critical of identity politics (tbh I don't like this term without a fuck tonne of clarification, but using it for brevity) and the wider political context that it's from and way this type of politics has been encouraged over the years by the State/culture to partly take the power away from the class, yet not see this as some conspiracy that they're now using trans rights and the arguments about that to destroy political movements.
People can be critical of identity politics (tbh I don't like this term without a fuck tonne of clarification, but using it for brevity) and the wider political context that it's from and way this type of politics has been encouraged over the years by the State/culture to partly take the power away from the class, yet not see this as some conspiracy that they're now using trans rights and the arguments about that to destroy political movements.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
As with all conspiracy theories this supposed one about MI5 and the trans agenda is completely top down and the wrong way round.
The past struggles of LGBT+ people have forced the state and corporations to recognise and accept them through changes in the law (and more generally). There is obviously still some way to go with this.
This acceptance is then sold back to us by these organisations as them being progressive. There is nothing sinister about this, it's just business as usual.
The Stonewall riots (and let us never forget that they were riots, by trans and gay people against the cops) are transformed into the pink pound.
The past struggles of LGBT+ people have forced the state and corporations to recognise and accept them through changes in the law (and more generally). There is obviously still some way to go with this.
This acceptance is then sold back to us by these organisations as them being progressive. There is nothing sinister about this, it's just business as usual.
The Stonewall riots (and let us never forget that they were riots, by trans and gay people against the cops) are transformed into the pink pound.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
Also if MI5 were serious about disrupting progressive movements through the trans/TERF dispute then they would no doubt embed people on both sides of that dispute.
And they probably wouldn't draw attention to themselves by sponsoring a massive corporate award at the same time either.
And they probably wouldn't draw attention to themselves by sponsoring a massive corporate award at the same time either.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
As a note here: I was asked about unlocking the old trans thread but I don't think that would be a good idea, given its history and the state it was in when it was closed. I think it would just re-open arguments and cause more trouble.
I appreciate that it might be better to move some of the stuff off the bookfair thread though. If someone starts a thread which has an actual defined topic, it won't get automatically closed because it might have a connection to trans politics.
I appreciate that it might be better to move some of the stuff off the bookfair thread though. If someone starts a thread which has an actual defined topic, it won't get automatically closed because it might have a connection to trans politics.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I might start one in Theory (to take the heat out of it a bit?) on the Janine Booth text. When I get a sec. If someone else wants to that's fine too obviously.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
And you know that eg Donald Trump tried to ban trans people being in the military? You know all those 'bathroom bills' in the states and a movement to do the same thing here? You know there are Tory MPs giving this support in Parliament? Not to mention the Polish states stance on this, the Russian state, the Hungarian state etc, all of which have made use of similar conspiracy type rhetoric to undermine LGBT people's rights and in the case of Poland and Hungary to discriminate against the Jews, blaming all these people for economic degradation, implying its solely a concern for the rich, etc. The inconvenient truth is that the state still discriminates against LGBT people and a few award ceremonies don't really change anything. Lgbt people are still being sent to their deaths by the UK state
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Back to the Bookfair...
Does anyone know if there's an ongoing conversation that the Bookfair collective are having about what to do? Or, as I imagine I might do, they might just be having a bit of a break about even thinking about it?
Is anyone thinking about putting on something in its place?
Does anyone have suggestions as to have to proceed forwards with the Bookfair for 2019?
Does anyone know if there's an ongoing conversation that the Bookfair collective are having about what to do? Or, as I imagine I might do, they might just be having a bit of a break about even thinking about it?
Is anyone thinking about putting on something in its place?
Does anyone have suggestions as to have to proceed forwards with the Bookfair for 2019?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
the thing as well about this stuff 'getting in the way of' or being a distraction from class politics, the thing is insisting that LGBT struggles etc are separate and some sort of distraction from everything else, is just not true, this stuff led to real material improvements in people's lives. it meant that people don't have to hide their sexuality, it meant that they accrued some of or even all of the same rights in theory as a heterosexual couple, it meant that they had some form of legal protection (again fought for by workers). it meant that societal stigma was lessened as people saw LGBT people in the media on a regular basis etc. It meant that they weren't (or werent supposed to be) taught at school homosexuality was wrong and they were deficient after S28 was abolished.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
One of the things that made me much less sympathetic to the 'just asking questions/wanting discussion' theme was hearing that the person who leafleted the Bookfair last year was planning on coming back next time it ran and do the same. And they're in the fucking Green Party, so basically couldn't give a fuck about being responsible for acting in a way that fucks the Bookfair up.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I'm not aware of anything happening right now (except the London Radical Bookfair which was always going to happen anyway).
My plan remains to email the (former?) organisers via the website or their twitter account in October and see if they are interested in doing anything in 2019 with a view to taking part myself.
Also - I've said that there is no reason to believe that the leafletters won't come back, but I have seen nothing to indicate that they actually intend to do so.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Though I'm in the Green Party and I've always valued the bookfair - which I guess is one reason I feel strongly that I should be able to attend without having to face transphobic information being handed out.
ETA - and why I'm so disappointed in people like Helen Steel. I've always supported her - literally when I was out there raising money and distributing leaflets when she was being sued by McDonalds - but would she give me that support in my time of need? Like fuck she would!!
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i suspect that there would be considerable disquiet if they did return, and that their attendance at the bookfair would be fleeting
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Yeah, I appreciate that.
But extending that to the Bookfair and practical problems with this and other issues, where and how would you say the line should be drawn around people feeling strongly that they should also be able to attend without having to face racist banners ('Religion is Stupid' one put up over the Active Distribution stall), or radical feminists saying they want to be able to attend without facing anti-feminist information?
How the fuck does this get sorted out at the Bookfair where until now people generally felt drawn together under the banner of anarchism, something that I think has now imploded?
Can the Bookfair ever happen again in the way it has in previous years?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I think there needs to be a fuck tonne of ego and personal feelings taken out of all of this.
Feeling upset or oppressed by a leaflet given out or a banner you can see? Get over it, how do you survive outside in the wider harsher world?
Giving out a leaflet/putting up a banner that you know is going to cause huge rows? Guess what, your leaflet/banner isn't that important, leave it at home.
<Standing by for a roasting.>
Feeling upset or oppressed by a leaflet given out or a banner you can see? Get over it, how do you survive outside in the wider harsher world?
Giving out a leaflet/putting up a banner that you know is going to cause huge rows? Guess what, your leaflet/banner isn't that important, leave it at home.
<Standing by for a roasting.>
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I think the piece frogwoman posted as evidence is hardly definitive.
As for the above assertion, has Banville written anti semetic articles published in the Morning Star? Thus far the evidence is more than a bit thin.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
hardly definitive, despite the fact that the entire article is saying that antisemitism is utterly unimportant and something for rich intellectual elites to discuss over dinner, and that poor people don't worry about it/are affected by it? ok then. i love it when it when someone decides what i'm 'definitively' allowed to be upset by and view as antisemitic. and this in the context of a thread defending that paper's transphobia. great stuff.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
especially an anti-religion banner at a bloody anarchist event. Sure, it's slogan is rather simplistic, but...it's a bloody slogan not a 500 page critique.I think there needs to be a fuck tonne of ego and personal feelings taken out of all of this.
Feeling upset or oppressed by a leaflet given out or a banner you can see? Get over it, how do you survive outside in the wider harsher world?
Giving out a leaflet/putting up a banner that you know is going to cause huge rows? Guess what, your leaflet/banner isn't that important, leave it at home.
<Standing by for a roasting.>
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
"One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ‘Anarchist Bookfair' draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, ‘Nature Cure’ quack, pacifist, and feminist in England." - (apologies to) George Orwell.
Slightly more seriously I do think this stuff over the Bookfair is partly the logical result of the type of anarchism that's become more popular in recent years, where anything that's vaguely anti-establishment has come under the anarchism umbrella, and it's ended up with a confused mess where actually people don't share that much political ground when it comes down to it.
(Personally always quite enjoy the fact that people that drink fruit juice used to be regarded as quacks back in the 1930s.
)
Slightly more seriously I do think this stuff over the Bookfair is partly the logical result of the type of anarchism that's become more popular in recent years, where anything that's vaguely anti-establishment has come under the anarchism umbrella, and it's ended up with a confused mess where actually people don't share that much political ground when it comes down to it.
(Personally always quite enjoy the fact that people that drink fruit juice used to be regarded as quacks back in the 1930s.
)
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
the fact that they employ some scumbag who is the supporter of beeley and other antisemitic/pro Assad loons, but that person 'doesn't print antisemitic articles at the morning star' is a pathetic defence btw, especially when their politics align with the Beeleyites in so many ways, when they have printed cartoons in support of Beeley (who by the way runs a far right conspiraloon site), and so on. it's like saying 'be as racist as you like mate but don't bring it in here'.
Edited: I don't think this transphobia problem is unrelated to the wider issues on the left. We are having to confront this shit constantly now. And it's a lesson in always being critical and examining/rethinking your own position too (something I haven't always done in the past).
Edited: I don't think this transphobia problem is unrelated to the wider issues on the left. We are having to confront this shit constantly now. And it's a lesson in always being critical and examining/rethinking your own position too (something I haven't always done in the past).
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Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
andysays
Love and solidarity
Some of the comments about banners and leaflets seem to imply that the organisers are (or should be) responsible for the content of all materials available.
Just in practical terms, I don't know how people expect this to work, quite apart from the issue of censoring or banning potentially offensive materials.
Once again, the organisers are being put in an impossible position.
Just in practical terms, I don't know how people expect this to work, quite apart from the issue of censoring or banning potentially offensive materials.
Once again, the organisers are being put in an impossible position.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
perhaps a health warning could be erected - perhaps along the lines of people bearing statist material beyond this point do so at their own risk
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
I remain optimistic that these issues can be overcome.
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