Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I think we might be past the tipping point
[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)
- Thread starter Kate Sharpley
- Start date
TopCat
Putin fanboy
That would be fabulous.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
(my emphasis) FWs explicitly said that that is not what she is saying. Rather that people should be careful about who they working with, that they might want to do a quick background check, and if if later turns out that someone is dodgy they don't lose any time in giving them the cold shoulder.
As froggie and others have said this is equally true of other issues - Palestine/Israel, anti-EU campaigns, criticism of multiculturalism etc - and it's actually just basic common sense, like PM said my enemies enemy is not my friend.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
And if a large number of people who agree with them do turn out to be dodgy may be worth asking why. And thinking about your position on that basis. Asking what it about that set of beliefs that attracts shit politics and whether your position should change as a result.
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Yes and that precisely why it's even more important that usual to make sure the people you might be allying/aligning yourself with are not dodgy.
Yes I get that but I wasn’t talking about people going to talks or organising etc but the ones who the debate is now just reaching so any misgivings expressed are instinctive rather than ‘learned’.
Organising it on the same day as Strawberry Fair seems like a pretty effective tactic
Organising it on the same day as Strawberry Fair seems like a pretty effective tactic
You think the next battle ground will be a festival?
Nice one
Well-Known Member
like Mi5? Mi6? GCHQ?
2017 is the first year that all three of the Security and Intelligence Agencies feature in Stonewall's Top 100 best employers for lesbian, gay, bi and trans people.
How do you think that plays out for an anarchist movement that has lost the only thing that provided anarchists with a presentation of itself as a movement?
If identity politics is fundementally the reproduction of social values that validates your identity what's the point of politics? What's the point of anarchism? What are you seeking to change?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yes - and as I've said I don't actually agree with the central argument around self identification (my point isn't against self identification itself fwiw, it's what happens when that comes into conflict women's spaces - but that's getting right back into it, not something for this thread). But yes, AWL, I'm just impressed to be reading something that makes an attempt to avoid twatty namecalling, recognises this has been a badly conducted debate and at least makes a tentative attempt at offering a left perspective. In a sense I'm easily pleased, but it's also a measure of how depressing this battle has been that I'm impressed by something I don't fully agree with, written for a group I certainly don't agree with.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Yes I'd put them in the dodgy category. Is anyone on this thread saying otherwise?
You're tilting at windmills, neither I, or FW, PM, LDC, etc are defending identity politics. Ensuring that anti-semites are marginalised and excluded from actions around Palestine/Israel isn't identity politics, keeping out pro-Assad scum from campaigns against the use of UK military forces isn't identity politics, and taking care that the people involved in any anti-GRA campaign aren't transphobic cunts isn't identity politics.
But more than that let me ask you what the point of anarchism is if you're not willing to recognise the basic principle of solidarity?
Of course that applies to the idiots that mobbed Helen Steel and set off the fire alarm (I don't think a single person on this thread has argued otherwise) but it also applies to those distributing a leaflet designed to provoke a reaction. People should be able to discuss both their criticism/concerns or their support for the GRA etc but you owe a bit of basic solidarity to your comrades to do it with some care and sense, particularly if you are going to do it at an event like the Bookfair. Recognise that this is an area that is very personal for lots people and consider* their opinions and feelings. Of course I can understand why when dealing with the actions of idiots people get pushed into camps and there is a breakdown in solidarity, it's regrettable but it's human. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't try to act with some attempt at solidarity - like taking care a bit of care to ensure that bigots, anti-semities, transphobic wankers, pro-dictator loons or undercover police are excluded from any actions/campaign you're undertaking.
*Note I'm not saying you have to agree what they say, i'm not saying you have to accept what they say, I'm not saying don't challenge them but just give them the solidarity to listen to what they say.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Not sure 'Anti-GRA campaigns' are a particularly good idea in itself tbf, and any such campaign *will* attract transphobes, given the amount of myths surrounding these proposals, the fact they call for making things trans people can already do a little easier, etc, the fact Ireland and other places have these laws and its seen largely as a non issue etc etc. Having an 'anti-GRA' campaign is a terrible idea imo. I largely agree with rest of your post though.
More info about GRA myths here
Facts Matter; Challenging the myths about self identification
More info about GRA myths here
Facts Matter; Challenging the myths about self identification
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LDC
On est tous des pangolins
And what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
iyo is this a good thing or a bad thing?
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there was the Camden Green Fair where the punks drove the Tories out, so you never know.You think the next battle ground will be a festival?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
perhaps the anarchist movement should seek to be in the top 100 stonewall employers
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Stonewall concern me too on lots of levels. That's why I withdrew my support for them some time ago. Traditionally they've been anti trans, and only changed about 3/4 years ago, but remain problematic on trans issues.
Trans people that I know have been extremely sceptical around Stonewalls recent change of heart on trans issues - not least because of their corporate and pro establishment take on LGBT acceptance.
But if you look at who's leading this neoliberal washing and corporatising of LGBT rights it's establishment LGB people - ceos, celebs, mps and Lords, bankers, and God knows what. What is absent are equivalent trans people. I know of one trans person who is high up in banking and that's it.
In fact my withdrawal from LGBT activism has been because of this corporate focus. Trans rights dont fit because we are still fighting for acceptance while the wider LGBT movement just want Pride, celebration and endlessly reflecting on how brilliant things are now compared to how they were. Its frustrating as fuck.
I've advocated trans people getting to the head of LGBT groups and turning them back into campaigning, protesting groups - there's just not enough trans people to make an impact by ourselves. And for that I've been smeared and excluded by largely establishment neo liberal gay men in the movement.
The idea that trans people are powerful and pro establishment people wih the support of secretive and shadowy groups is laughable tbh.
Trans people that I know have been extremely sceptical around Stonewalls recent change of heart on trans issues - not least because of their corporate and pro establishment take on LGBT acceptance.
But if you look at who's leading this neoliberal washing and corporatising of LGBT rights it's establishment LGB people - ceos, celebs, mps and Lords, bankers, and God knows what. What is absent are equivalent trans people. I know of one trans person who is high up in banking and that's it.
In fact my withdrawal from LGBT activism has been because of this corporate focus. Trans rights dont fit because we are still fighting for acceptance while the wider LGBT movement just want Pride, celebration and endlessly reflecting on how brilliant things are now compared to how they were. Its frustrating as fuck.
I've advocated trans people getting to the head of LGBT groups and turning them back into campaigning, protesting groups - there's just not enough trans people to make an impact by ourselves. And for that I've been smeared and excluded by largely establishment neo liberal gay men in the movement.
The idea that trans people are powerful and pro establishment people wih the support of secretive and shadowy groups is laughable tbh.
Nice one
Well-Known Member
What it does do it frame the question that follows it. (You can't really have the one without the other).
I'll put it another way. The most sinister part of the UK state, some very dodgy people, are using progressive sexual politics to promote themselves as an inclusive workplace. Is the anarchist movement outraged by that? Helen steel certainly was.
What does it say about the nature of identity politics that when oppressive state institutions align themselves with progressive political identities those outraged are the ones that get criticised (re helen steel again)?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Recuperation innit.
Same old thing that happened with all sorts of progressive social movements. It's nothing new, and doesn't hint at any kind of conspiracy. Yeah, it's a part of identity politics for sure. But I see people across all sides in this debate criticizing identity politics.
If anyone is aligning the radical feminists with class based/solidarity/non-identity politics and trans people with individualized/difference/identity politics then I suggest you're taking a very simple and inaccurate view on things.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
so many wrong assumptions in that statement.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
The state also supported redefining the traditional definition of marriage.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Jfc.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I'm at the edge of my fucking seat, I can't wait to find out who these 'shadowy elite groups' trying to push neoliberal sexual politics onto the public are. I bet it all started with the end of section 28 and the redefining of traditional marriage as well.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's good of them to name the site bs news so you know in advance the low quality of their fare
Nice one
Well-Known Member
so many wrong assumptions in that statment.
Youre absolutely right. I shouldnt assume mi5 is an oppressive state institution, certainly not the most sinister. I shouldnt assume that.Nor should i assume they're using progressive sexual...
Nah fuck it what do you think i am assuming that is wrong?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
sexual orientation and gender reassignment are protected characteristics under the equality act 2010. it is therefore a legal obligation for mi5, mi6 and indeed the police forces of this country not to discriminate against people on these grounds. i don't myself think that there is anything inherently progressive about trans-sexualism or the sexual politics associated with it, and i'm certainly not outraged at organizations which have jumped through hoops to get stonewall's approval. there are other reasons, better reasons, to be outraged at mi5 and mi6 than their apparently decent treatment of people from an lgbt background. i have never cared who worked at mi5 or mi6, what their sexual preferences were, whether they were transitioning from male to female or vice versa. they could be the most inclusive workplace in the country and it wouldn't alter my opinion of those malign organisations one iota to know that surveillance and political repression was being carried out by lgbtq+ people rather than, or as well as, cis heterosexuals.
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