[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[TopCat]

Yeah, if you're a Green Party member/activist you're pretty far down the list of who I'm going to listen to about what should and shouldn't be at the Anarchist Bookfair.

Off the list.

 

[Shechemite]

Off the list.

Doesn’t even make the subs bench

 

[Pickman's model]

Doesn’t even make the subs bench

not even in the stadium

 

[LDC]

I demand someone from a long standing anarchist grouping, preferably a cis-man with a grey beard and tweed suit, sitting at at the entrance to the next Bookfair checking anarchist credentials in front of a dusty computer from the '80s.

"Green Party? Momentum? Think Corbyn's a sweetie? Hmmm, computer says no."

 

[Shechemite]

I demand someone from a long standing anarchist grouping, preferably a cis-man with a grey beard and tweed suit, sitting at at the entrance to the next Bookfair checking anarchist credentials in front of a dusty computer from the '80s.

"Green Party? Momentum? Think Corbyn's a sweetie? Hmmm, computer says no."

I was born in the wrong era

 

[LDC]

I was born in the wrong era

Give this thread a bit longer so you have a few more pages to read and you'll be old before your time.

 

[TopCat]

The reality is we are not going to allow a self appointed bunch of agenda holders to dictate who is allowed to peddle what line at the bookfair, respecting their right of veto over the event if they are not satisfied.
Green Party members can fuck off, as can the pro religionists and the stupid cunt who burned our banner.
People who rock up just to sow division can fuck off as well.
We should hold the bookfair in the future and let any cunts picketing the event feel the heat.
Forward comrades!

 

[Pickman's model]

The reality is we are not going to allow a self appointed bunch of agenda holders to dictate who is allowed to peddle what line at the bookfair, respecting their right of veto over the event if they are not satisfied.
Green Party members can fuck off, as can the pro religionists and the stupid cunt who burned our banner.
People who rock up just to sow division can fuck off as well.
We should hold the bookfair in the future and let any cunts picketing the event feel the heat.
Forward comrades!

As malatesta would have said, avanti!

 

[Nice one]

I can't believe I am fucking reading this. people are repeating a conspiracy about lgbt sexual politics' being an agenda by the state. As if MI5 don't already have influence and they have to use trans politics to do so!! All this fucking subtext about these 'shadowy elites' earning vast sums as well, hmmm wonder who could be being talked about there? Another discriminated against group? Surely not!

done a search of the thread and nobody, absolutely nobody has mentioned or repeated there is a conspiracy of lgbt sexual politics being an agenda by the state. In fact nobody has mention conspiracy at all apart from yourself in countering arguments no-one has actually made.

The only thing that could possibly allude to this is when someone posted up helen steel's facebook post. Is this what you mean? And if it is can you be clear about it? Do you think what helen steel wrote has an anti-semitic subtext? She didn't mention 'shadowy elites' though, no-one's mentioned shadowy elites.

What we do have is the state's secret services employing a classic case of pinkwashing. And yes pinkwashing is employed by state agencies precisely because the british state deports lgbt people to their death.

 

[Pickman's model]

What it does do it frame the question that follows it. (You can't really have the one without the other).

I'll put it another way. The most sinister part of the UK state, some very dodgy people, are using progressive sexual politics to promote themselves as an inclusive workplace. Is the anarchist movement outraged by that? Helen steel certainly was.

What does it say about the nature of identity politics that when oppressive state institutions align themselves with progressive political identities those outraged are the ones that get criticised (re helen steel again)?

How is being trans a progressive political identity?

 

[LDC]

Statement on Freedom's website

It’s spelt Sisterhood, not Cis-terhood statement

 

[Pickman's model]

done a search of the thread and nobody, absolutely nobody has mentioned or repeated there is a conspiracy of lgbt sexual politics being an agenda by the state. In fact nobody has mention conspiracy at all apart from yourself in countering arguments no-one has actually made.

The only thing that could possibly allude to this is when someone posted up helen steel's facebook post. Is this what you mean? And if it is can you be clear about it? Do you think what helen steel wrote has an anti-semitic subtext? She didn't mention 'shadowy elites' though, no-one's mentioned shadowy elites.

What we do have is the state's secret services employing a classic case of pinkwashing. And yes pinkwashing is employed by state agencies precisely because the british state deports lgbt people to their death.

LynnDoyleCooper mentioned the shadowy establishment:

I think this whole *wink wink nudge nudge* trans rights being pushed by the shadowy establishment to disrupt movements is a fucking pathetic joke tbh, and just shows the desperation of some of the politics.

according to wikipedia

perhaps you owe frogwoman an apology

 

[frogwoman]

the idea that MI5 and the UK state is pushing 'progressive sexual politics' (in order to do what?) in order to divide movements etc is a conspiracy. its nonsensical. and frankly if the state is using the idea of respect for LGBT people or not to divide movements, then maybe they deserve to be divided tbh.
Did you read smokedout's post where he posted up that statement, where it mentioned 'MI5 and bankers' promoting this? and i read the original thread with helen steel and think some of the comments on that origianl thread about 'bankers' being involved in the LGBT movement and pushing this 'trans agenda' have an antisemitic subtext yes.
even if they didn't have this subtext, it is still a nonsensical, and offensive idea. all of these things that were actually fought for by the LGBT movement weren't just given away, it was decades of people fighting for their rights.
if you weren't promoting a conspiracy theory or this wasn't in fact what you were saying, then i'm sorry. but looking at the thread i'm definitely not the only one that interpreted your post this way.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

the idea that MI5 and the UK state is pushing 'progressive sexual politics' (in order to do what?) is a conspiracy theory. they don't need to do this. why do they need to? and think some of the comments on that origianl thread about 'bankers' being involved in the LGBT movement and pushing this 'trans agenda' have an antisemitic subtext yes.
even if they didn't have this subtext, it is still a nonsensical, and offensive idea.

I thought it just pertained to eg Barclays sponsoring Pride. Which is actually a thing.

 

[Sea Star]

the idea that MI5 and the UK state is pushing 'progressive sexual politics' (in order to do what?) in order to divide movements etc is a conspiracy. its nonsensical. and frankly if the state is using the idea of respect for LGBT people or not to divide movements, then maybe they deserve to be divided tbh.
Did you read smokedout's post where he posted up that statement, where it mentioned 'MI5 and bankers' promoting this? and i read the original thread with helen steel and think some of the comments on that origianl thread about 'bankers' being involved in the LGBT movement and pushing this 'trans agenda' have an antisemitic subtext yes.
even if they didn't have this subtext, it is still a nonsensical, and offensive idea. all of these things that were actually fought for by the LGBT movement weren't just given away, it was decades of people fighting for their rights.

Add to that the whole Big Pharma conspiracy - definitely getting into David Icke territory.

And as for the state using support for trans people to cause division in the left, that strategy does rely on useful idiots on the left buying into transphobic ideas, largely supplied by the media such as the Times, the Spectator and the Mail. Nothing fishy about that.

 

[Sea Star]

I thought it just pertained to eg Barclays sponsoring Pride. Which is actually a thing.

Barclays sponsored pride - indeed, corporate sponsored Pride, is distinctly trans unfriendly as well as being racist, among many other problems. So how this all got conflated into conspiracy theories about trans people is unclear.

 

[frogwoman]

no

like Mi5? Mi6? GCHQ?
2017 is the first year that all three of the Security and Intelligence Agencies feature in Stonewall's Top 100 best employers for lesbian, gay, bi and trans people.

How do you think that plays out for an anarchist movement that has lost the only thing that provided anarchists with a presentation of itself as a movement?

If identity politics is fundementally the reproduction of social values that validates your identity what's the point of politics? What's the point of anarchism? What are you seeking to change?

What it does do it frame the question that follows it. (You can't really have the one without the other).

I'll put it another way. The most sinister part of the UK state, some very dodgy people, are using progressive sexual politics to promote themselves as an inclusive workplace. Is the anarchist movement outraged by that? Helen steel certainly was.

What does it say about the nature of identity politics that when oppressive state institutions align themselves with progressive political identities those outraged are the ones that get criticised (re helen steel again)?

so what exactly do you think is happening here? yes, MI5 and the cops do promote themselves as an inclusive workplace, lots of employers do this.
and there have been and are *loads* of LGBT activists upset over the pinkwashing of pride etc, it's quite a major issue in the LGBT activism and has been since as long as I can remember, companies recuperating the idea of pride, commercial outfits and MI5 etc getting in on the act. i think at the moment there's a pride march which the organisers have asked people not to have any political content on the march because 'its a celebration not a protest'. so it's definitely untrue to say 'those outraged by it are the ones that get criticised'.
and 'the reproduction of social values that validate your identity' - well what kind of social values are these exactly? what are you saying should happen, as it seems to imply that people should be sceptical of trans people in general because MI5 won some award?
what steel said is very different, she said that trans rights and GRA changes were being promoted by 'MI5 and bankers'. i dont think thats the same thing at all tbh.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Barclays sponsored pride - indeed, corporate sponsored Pride, is distinctly trans unfriendly as well as being racist, among many other problems. So how this all got conflated into conspiracy theories about trans people is unclear.

I agree with that. All it shows really is that Pride has been co-opted by the establishment.

 

[Pickman's model]

no

so what exactly do you think is happening here? yes, MI5 and the cops do promote themselves as an inclusive workplace, lots of employers do this.
and there have been and are *loads* of LGBT activists upset over the pinkwashing of pride etc, it's quite a major issue in the LGBT activism and has been since as long as I can remember, companies recuperating the idea of pride, commercial outfits and MI5 etc getting in on the act. i think at the moment there's a pride march which the organisers have asked people not to have any political content on the march because 'its a celebration not a protest'. so it's definitely untrue to say 'those outraged by it are the ones that get criticised'.
and 'the reproduction of social values that validate your identity' - well what kind of social values are these exactly? what are you saying should happen, as it seems to imply that people should be sceptical of trans people in general because MI5 won some award?
what steel said is very different, she said that trans rights and GRA changes were being promoted by 'MI5 and bankers'. i dont think thats the same thing at all tbh.

not to mention that an identity, be it sexual orientation or gender, is not in itself progressive. any community or set of people with a defining characteristic be it heterosexuality or transgenderism, is going to contain people with a range of political ideas from revolutionary anarchism to high toryism: but i look forward to Nice one explaining his thinking on the matter.

 

[Pickman's model]

I agree with that. All it shows really is that Pride has been co-opted by the establishment.

i remember back round 1999, 2000 there was an alternative pride for people who were pissed off by the commerciality of the main one.

 

[frogwoman]

Trans advocacy sponsored by MI5 and bankers!

Why has the relatively new ‘trans' ideology made so many gains so fast? Much faster gains than ever achieved by those fighting sexism and racism. Why is this new ideology splitting so many progressive movements with its demands for absolute adherence to that ideology and total intolerance of any debate or critical thinking?

Who benefits from its demands that women be expelled from political movements and parties for daring to think and speak for themselves about their life experiences of sexism? How has it taken over LGB organisations so successfully that the most blatant attacks on lesbians’ rights by numerous trans advocates go completely unchallenged?

Take a look at the LGBT awards last night and think about whether this agenda is driven by the most oppressed people on the planet or whether it’s actually driven and funded by those with power and money - by predominantly rich, very privileged white men, who despite their position still want more. Sponsored by MI5 ! Sponsored by Barclays, HSBT, Virgin, PWC. Award to Playboy! Awards to bankers.

What genuine activist fighting oppression would think it appropriate to have an award sponsored by MI5 for the category which "celebrates influencers, activists, campaigners or trailblazers in the LGBT+ community, who have made an impact either on a grass roots level……..". How were they in contact with MI5 in the first place?

In all your years of fighting injustice, have you ever seen anything like this movement for creating division but having massive success in getting laws and policies changed?

How has a movement which demands that we deny the reality of biological sex and the reality of physical differences between women and men, and which can’t even provide the new definitions of the words it has appropriated, made so many gains so fast in so many countries around the world?

This movement upholds rather than destroys sexism and sexist stereotypes. Ask yourself who/what does this movement really represent?

this statement to me is not just saying that trans activists shouldn't accept an award to MI5 or be outraged at them doing so, being outraged at the commercialisation of pride, etc.
It's linking the trans activist movement to a conspiracy, saying that it's 'achieved so many gains so fast across the world', saying it's 'creating division' and demands absolute adherence to an ideology, etc. It is true that some of the SJWs have been a bit silly, and completely counterproductive, but when you have plans to no platform speakers being banned by government, people like jordan peterson specifically get his career kick started by ridiculing trans people and saying that he will refuse to refer to anyone except by biological sex, etc, it's very clear this is far from the truth. and IIRC the GRA consultations have now been shelved anyway (maybe someone can confirm this?)

 

[frogwoman]

not to mention that an identity, be it sexual orientation or gender, is not in itself progressive. any community or set of people with a defining characteristic be it heterosexuality or transgenderism, is going to contain people with a range of political ideas from revolutionary anarchism to high toryism: but i look forward to Nice one explaining his thinking on the matter.

yeah what is a 'progressive political identity'?

 

[frogwoman]

Add to that the whole Big Pharma conspiracy - definitely getting into David Icke territory.

And as for the state using support for trans people to cause division in the left, that strategy does rely on useful idiots on the left buying into transphobic ideas, largely supplied by the media such as the Times, the Spectator and the Mail. Nothing fishy about that.

It simply isn't true that transgender people are achieving 'faster gains' than other minorities. See here:

In Rescinding Transgender Prisoner Protections, Trump Administration Again Targets the Most Vulnerable

 

[Sea Star]

It simply isn't true that transgender people are achieving 'faster gains' than other minorities. See here:

In Rescinding Transgender Prisoner Protections, Trump Administration Again Targets the Most Vulnerable

People can't see the long history going back to the early 20th century - they only see that trans people seemed to come into existence about 5 years ago with all the rights - that had been long fought for - also magically appearing.

 

[Pickman's model]

People can't see the long history going back to the early 20th century - they only see that trans people seemed to come into existence about 5 years ago with all the rights - that had been long fought for - also magically appearing.

yeh everyone's ignorant with the truth known only to a few elect. right.

 

[stethoscope]

Statement on Freedom's website

It’s spelt Sisterhood, not Cis-terhood statement

I realise it's a statement from various people/groups rather than a presented as a motion/discussion piece, but given some of the names who have signed it, I thought it was pretty weak when I read it - sure it's trans-supportive, but it seems a bit wishy washy and clumsy in some respects and lacking the sort of clarity and definitely class analysis which I'd want to see - the AWL/Booth piece is so much stronger.

In the meantime, it looks like it's also kicked off a war of words between Freedom and Steel...

I don't know where positive any of this is likely to go in terms of solidarity and radical/anarchist movements.

 

[LDC]

Fuck that Twitter exchange is depressing - it's the whole row encapsulated.

That sentence Helen first draws attention to I had to read a few times and was still a bit wtf.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I realise it's a statement from various people/groups rather than a presented as a motion/discussion piece, but given some of the names who have signed it, I thought it was pretty weak when I read it - sure it's trans-supportive, but it seems a bit wishy washy and clumsy in some respects and lacking much class analysis which I'd want to see - the AWL/Booth piece is so much stronger.

This is exactly what I thought when I saw it too. Plus the language (hate, sick, despise) is more punk rock than the situation demands and won't help.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is exactly what I thought when I saw it too. Plus the language (hate, sick, despise) is more punk rock than the situation demands and won't help.

the situation is beyond help.

 

[frogwoman]

the AWL piece goes a long way to refuting some of the specific points raised by the radfems too.