[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[LDC]

This is exactly what I thought when I saw it too. Plus the language (hate, sick, despise) is more punk rock than the situation demands and won't help.

Anarchism: a good political idea ruined by punk rock.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

the situation is beyond help.

Well that remains to be seen, so let's not be pessimistic.

 

[LDC]

When the fuck will people learn that Twitter is fucking useless for sensible discussion? It's for news, not debate ffs.

Maybe someone will write a response for Freedom to publish...?

 

[Pickman's model]

Well that remains to be seen, so let's not be pessimistic.

i tell you what, shall we unleash the destructive forces of TAFKNTs and TAs on the tory party conference? be grand to see that ended

 

[redsquirrel]

I realise it's a statement from various people/groups rather than a presented as a motion/discussion piece, but given some of the names who have signed it, I thought it was pretty weak when I read it - sure it's trans-supportive, but it seems a bit wishy washy and clumsy in some respects and lacking the sort of clarity and definitely class analysis which I'd want to see - the AWL/Booth piece is so much stronger.

Yes reading it my impression was that there was a lot of words to say something that didn't amount to a lot. I guess that's often a problem when so many people are putting together a statement. (Also I don't agree with the statement "Identity politics are about intersectionality not essentialism" but that's probably being a bit picky)

In the meantime, it looks like it's also kicked off a war of words between Freedom and Steel...
I don't know where positive any of this is likely to go in terms of solidarity and radical/anarchist movements.

FFS when will people realise that twitter is a truly shit place to hold any political discussion. Might be good for some things - quite response/organising but absolutely rubbish for having a sensible conversation, particularly one that all the baggage this one does.

 

[Pickman's model]

When the fuck will people learn that Twitter is fucking useless for sensible discussion? It's for news, not debate ffs.

c4u

 

[Fozzie Bear]

When the fuck will people learn that Twitter is fucking useless for sensible discussion? It's for news, not debate ffs.

But what if the NEWS is WRONG, LDC? Eh? Eh?

 

[stethoscope]

Anarchism: a good political idea ruined by punk rock.

 

[krink]

punk rock was ruined by anarchists. and punks.

 

[Pickman's model]

punk rock was ruined by anarchists. and punks.

 

[krink]

I've started reading that statement in Freedom. I take it Freedom themselves do not approve/support the statement as they don't seem to be on the supporters list and there's nothing in the introduction. It's a terribly written statement - I'm only part way in and even I have spotted a few howlers - so not surprised if Freedom aren't signing up to it.

 

[andysays]

...TAFKNTs

It's probably obvious to everyone except me, but what's this stand for?

 

[Pickman's model]

It's probably obvious to everyone except me, but what's this stand for?

The Activists Formerly Known As TERFs

 

[Pickman's model]

post 1826

people should use the official designator - TAFKNT (pronounced taffkent): the activists formerly known as terfs.

andysays

 

[Wilf]

I've started reading that statement in Freedom. I take it Freedom themselves do not approve/support the statement as they don't seem to be on the supporters list and there's nothing in the introduction. It's a terribly written statement - I'm only part way in and even I have spotted a few howlers - so not surprised if Freedom aren't signing up to it.

We are asking our cis male comrades to join us in these commitments. This isn’t a ‘women’s issue’. This struggle isn’t less important than the class struggle or anti-fascism, it is a part of those struggles as much as they are a part of it. Identity politics are about intersectionality not essentialism, and this benefits you as much as us and trans people

I think the first bit of the above is interesting, listing trans issues, antifash and class struggle as different things. Might just be a wording thing, but listing them like that suggests you don't do trans politics (or other themes/areas) as part of class politics. But the real thing for me is that the people who wrote and signed up to this commit themselves to intersectionality.

Edit: pretty much assuming - explicitly stating even - that anarchists should embrace idpols and intersectionality.

 

[belboid]

I think the first bit of the above is interesting, listing trans issues, antifash and class struggle as different things. Might just be a wording thing, but listing them like that suggests you don't do trans politics (or other themes/areas) as part of class politics. But the real thing for me is that the people who wrote and signed up to this commit themselves to intersectionality.

Edit: pretty much assuming - explicitly stating even - that anarchists should embrace idpols and intersectionality.

the point of that statement is surely that one cannot separate class politics, anti-fascism and trans rights struggles into separate struggles, they are all part of the same thing. that is, presumably, what they mean by supporting intersectionality.

 

[newbie]

TAFKNTs

The Activists Formerly Known As TERFs

TAFKATs surely?

 

[andysays]

The Activists Formerly Known As TERFs

Good luck getting your neologism into the next update of the OED

 

[Pickman's model]

TAFKATs surely?

yeh you'd have thought so but no

 

[Pickman's model]

Good luck getting your neologism into the next update of the OED

such a petty ambition

 

[newbie]

yeh you'd have thought so but no

for any reason other than making it wholly unpronounceable?

 

[stethoscope]

I've been pronouncing it taf-kunts, presume that's right?

 

[Pickman's model]

for any reason other than making it wholly unpronounceable?

in his house at r'lyeh dead cthulhu waits dreaming is pronounceable

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn: rather less so

tafknt by comparison is a walk in the park

 

[Wilf]

the point of that statement is surely that one cannot separate class politics, anti-fascism and trans rights struggles as separate struggles, they are all part of the same thing. that is, presumably, what they mean by supporting intersectionality.

Well, literally, it does say that but the bit I quoted is the only bit in the whole thing that relates to any kind of class issues. And this bit: 'it is a part of those struggles as much as they are a part of it' reads like a mere nod towards connecting struggles when the wider approach of ID politics fails to do exactly that.

 

[belboid]

It reads to me more like an example of social reproduction theory. It is a statement on a ‘identity politics’ issue, hence it is always going to talk about identity politics issues. But it also says that these are class issues, they cannot be separated. Hence it isn’t ‘the only bit in the whole thing that relates to any kind of class issues’ – because the whole thing is a class issue.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[Nice one]

the idea that MI5 and the UK state is pushing 'progressive sexual politics' (in order to do what?) in order to divide movements etc is a conspiracy. its nonsensical. and frankly if the state is using the idea of respect for LGBT people or not to divide movements, then maybe they deserve to be divided tbh.
Did you read smokedout's post where he posted up that statement, where it mentioned 'MI5 and bankers' promoting this? and i read the original thread with helen steel and think some of the comments on that origianl thread about 'bankers' being involved in the LGBT movement and pushing this 'trans agenda' have an antisemitic subtext yes.
even if they didn't have this subtext, it is still a nonsensical, and offensive idea. all of these things that were actually fought for by the LGBT movement weren't just given away, it was decades of people fighting for their rights.
if you weren't promoting a conspiracy theory or this wasn't in fact what you were saying, then i'm sorry. but looking at the thread i'm definitely not the only one that interpreted your post this way.

Just to be clear: somebody wrote something on here about the women on the radical feminist side associating with dodgy people (you get no counter from me on that score, the left is a open sewer occassionally littered with rafts of lunacy, idiocy that utterly demented self-serving arseholes cling to). But equally the trans advocacy side associate with some dodgy people- the example given is the lgbt awards - which was what helen steel was explicitly talking about in her facebook post.

The sponsors for these awards include - NatWest, Barclays, HSBC, Mi5, Virigin Atlantic, Pricewaterhouse Coopers, (and bizarrely GMB union).
The judging panel include:
Mark Anderson - Executive Vice President - Customer Virgin Atlantic
Brian Ashmead-Siers - Partner at PwC
Sue Baines - Director – Barclays Bank
Philip Bourchier O’Ferrall - Head of Velocity International, Executive Vice President
Viacom International Media Networks
Fiona Daniel - Head of Diversity and Inclusion, HSBC
Samantha Nelson - Vice President, Risk Engineer, Global Energy Practice, Marsh (MMC)
Daisy Reeves - Partner Bryan Cave Leighton Paisner (law firm)
Marjorie Strachan - Head of Inclusion Royal Bank of Scotland

When i saw that i thought - this isn't a celebration of lgbt life, it's a celebration of capitalism. And this is what i think Helen Steel was getting at in her post. I haven't read the facebook thread that followed but if what you're saying is true people then i think she seriously needs to amend her language so there can be no confusion - she's not the sort of person who suffers demented self-serving arseholes whatever their politics.

She makes exactly the same point you make all of these things that were actually fought for by the LGBT movement weren't just given away, it was decades of people fighting for their rights.

 

[Nice one]

yeah what is a 'progressive political identity'?

off the top of my head i would say things like: socialist, feminist, anti-fascist, trade union activist, anti-racist campaigner

 

[crossthebreeze]

Just to be clear: somebody wrote something on here about the women on the radical feminist side associating with dodgy people (you get no counter from me on that score, the left is a open sewer occassionally littered with rafts of lunacy, idiocy that utterly demented self-serving arseholes cling to). But equally trans advocacy side associate with some dodgy people- the example given is the lgbt awards - which was what helen steel was explicitly talking about in her facebook post.

The sponsors for these awards include - NatWest, Barclays, HSBC, Mi5, Virigin Atlantic, Pricewaterhouse Coopers, (and bizarrely GMB union).
The juding panel include:
Mark Anderson - Executive Vice President - Customer Virgin Atlantic
Brian Ashmead-Siers - Partner at PwC
Sue Baines - Director – Barclays Bank
Philip Bourchier O’Ferrall - Head of Velocity International, Executive Vice President
Viacom International Media Networks
Fiona Daniel - Head of Diversity and Inclusion, HSBC
Samantha Nelson - Vice President, Risk Engineer, Global Energy Practice, Marsh (MMC)
Daisy Reeves - Partner Bryan Cave Leighton Paisner (law firm)
Marjorie Strachan - Head of Inclusion Royal Bank of Scotland

When i saw that i thought - this isn't a celebration of lgbt life, it's a celebration of capitalism. And this is what i think Helen Steel was getting at in her post. I haven't read the facebook thread that followed but if that's what people are saying then i think helen steel needs to amend her language so there can be no confusion - she's not the sort of person who suffers demented self-serving arseholes whatever their politics.

She makes exactly the same point you make all of these things that were actually fought for by the LGBT movement weren't just given away, it was decades of people fighting for their rights.

Yes and winnners inclided Playboy, Richard Branson, MI5, and a few people who work for banks and other corporates, and a few LGBTQ activists and celebs (I am actually disappointed in Laverne Cox accepting an award (sponsored by Natwest) because I thought she had decent politics which included a class analysis but then again she wasn't actually there to accept the award, so maybe its all done through agents and that and she knows nothing about it). Its also utterly bizarre but almost certainly deliberate that MI5 sponsor the "outstanding contribution to LGBT+ life" awards but its an indication of the recipient not having decent politics that would cause them to refuse such an award rather than being an MI5 asset. The whole awards are disgusting - and so far removed from the lives of most LGBTQ people. Like Helen Steel said, its mostly benefiting rich white men.

But its classic recuperation. However lots of LGBTQ people - including trans people (sometimes leading on it) - have protested this process of recuperation in the past, which she seems to have missed from her analysis. Its the jump Helen makes from criticising the awards or even analysing what aspects of LGBTQ activism are most easily recuperated by capital and to what purpose to asking "Why has the relatively new ‘trans' ideology made so many gains so fast? Much faster gains than ever achieved by those fighting sexism and racism. Why is this new ideology splitting so many progressive movements with its demands for absolute adherence to that ideology and total intolerance of any debate or critical thinking?" - she seems to be saying that capital (though she concentrates on bankers which y'know is a small step down a very wrong road) and MI5 are driving trans ideology and its "successes" - its conspiracy nonsense.

 

[stethoscope]

I'd argue that she's not really even right with that though - trans rights (and as a political 'movement') has always been ten years behind Lesbian & Gay rights, it's just that trans visibility has broke mainstream in the last five and is, at present, seeing a quicker pace of public awareness and discourse and trans people have found a stronger voice. But, also comes the backlash as we're partly seeing now too. And why 'play' feminism, anti-racism, etc. off against trans people and rights? I did grant Steel with a bit more of an analysis and awareness of this, given her political history, and regardless of her personal opinions on some of this, but some of what's she's been saying and other people she's been retweeting is very disappointing.

Ten years ago, capital and state institutions were already exploiting LGB people in a big way, Pride became commercial, every bank was selling it's 'gay friendly' credentials - at least, and I think this is important too, to middle class LGB people. Trans stuff was still struggling to get even basic name changes with banks sorted properly without any draconian crap. I don't understand, therefore, why, trans rights are now being singled out especially. Not only that, but in the longer time period which we've had black liberation, a number of waves of feminism, lesbian & gay liberation and now trans rights coming to the fore, this country (and the World) has massively shifted to a neoliberal one. And so mainstream liberation/rights end up sitting inside capital and liberal structures (as do a lot of what we see with BAME rights too - look at the current stuff about Oxbridge - just about improving diversity of intake not why such institutions are a problem). But, trans rights for years had to fight against state structures. Again, it's about class primarily.