[Sat 28th Oct 2017] London Anarchist Bookfair (London)

[Thimble Queen]

Edit: I actually don't want to get into this. Shouldn't have posted.

 

[TruXta]

If having a womb is essential to being a woman, where does that leave biological women born without one? And so on...

 

[shygirl]

Why shouldn't transwomen have access to women's domestic violence and rape services. Unless you don't think they are women then I personally don't see what the problem is. If a man wants to rape, he's highly unlikely to pretend to be trans to do it.

I don't recognise the picture you paint around discussing periods and child birth. I have had conversations with women and femmes about how difficult it can be in certain circumstances when the female experiences is equated with things such as childbirth which isn't experienced by all women, even those who are cis. And I don't think there's anything wrong with being mindful of someone's feelings, who for whatever reason, is unable to carry a child. Just like I'd be sensitive to a person who had just experienced a miscarriage, or who simply didn't want kids. This is pretty basic 'don't be a dick' stuff.

But, imo, they're not women as in female-born women. They're trans-women. And yes, trans-women, as I said earlier in the thread, have raped and assaulted girls and women in safe spaces, mainly from what I can gather, in the US. And yes, I do believe there are and will be men who will claim to be trans in order to have easier access to intimate spaces.

Re: your 2nd para, of course it is, no disagreement there whatsoever. That's very different to women being told we're exclusionary on a broader, not personal level if and when we talk about these things.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Women/feminists have supported trans rights going way back into the 70's. There wasn't hostility until trans women started to demand access to our most private places, blaming us for the all the violence they endured (like it wasn't fucking raging, vile men attacking them), and reaching the point where it is now anathema to talk about our cunts, tits, periods (oh, and don't complain about period pain, else you'll be told you're ungrateful and they would give anything to experience periods), breast-feeding, giving birth, all in case we might hurt their feelings. So no, it didn't start with feminists as you assert.

How often have you been in or are you in situations where this actually happens?

 

[shygirl]

It's more than just one organ or part, it's the whole and it's the experience of sex-based inequality and oppression that millions of women experience world-wide, day in and day out.

 

[DaveCinzano]

What’s going on there?

Activist-writer Kristian Williams was a speaker at this event in Portland, Oregon in 2014. A bunch of people were there to disrupt the event having taken exception to an article he had written, and it snowballed from there.

The OP of this Libcom thread is quite useful:

Disruption of Kristian Williams speech in Portland

ETA:

Here's a U75 thread from the time:

American anarchists meaninglessly devour themselves at Portland Conference

 

[Shechemite]

Activist-writer Kristian Williams was a speaker at this event in Portland, Oregon in 2014. A bunch of people took exception to an article he wrote, and it snowballed from there.

The Libcom summary is quite useful:

Disruption of Kristian Williams speech in Portland

ETA:

Here's a thread from the time:

American anarchists meaninglessly devour themselves at Portland Conference

Ta

 

[weepiper]

It's more than just one organ or part, it's the whole and it's the experience of sex-based inequality and oppression that millions of women experience world-wide, day in and day out.

This. A woman born without a womb is still going to grow up experiencing the sex based oppression that comes with being assigned 'female'.

 

[TruXta]

It's more than just one organ or part, it's the whole and it's the experience of sex-based inequality and oppression that millions of women experience world-wide, day in and day out.

Fair enough, but an appeal to something that distinguishes "real" women from trans women rather begs the question of what separates one from the other.

 

[bimble]

But, imo, they're not women as in female-born women. They're trans-women. .

But this is not allowed to say, you must at least talk as if you see no difference between people who have lived all their lives as women in this society and been socialised from birth as women and people who haven't, otherwise you're a terf.

 

[shygirl]

I've not personally been in situations where I or other women have been closed down, but have read lots of comments from trans activisists (one of whom I worked with) which argue that talking about women's biology is trans-exclusionary. You really couldn't make it up.

Fwitw, I'm 55, bi-sexual, grew up spending a lot of time with my older brother who is gay in gay spaces, have a friend who is trans (who doesn't agree with the trans activism we're discussing here).

 

[TruXta]

This. A woman born without a womb is still going to grow up experiencing the sex based oppression that comes with being assigned 'female'.

So it's not really about biology as such, but the gender assignment? Genuinely just trying to understand the POV here.

 

[shygirl]

But this is not allowed to say, you must at least talk as if you see no difference between people who have lived all their lives as women in this society and been socialised from birth as women and people who haven't, otherwise you're a terf.

I'm a woman fighting for women's rights. I don't recognise your 'terf' term, but if you feel that's what I am, then you carry on. I'm really not scared of the name. It's the threats of violence, never, ever seen, as far as I can remember, in leftist circles I've moved in, that frightens me.

 

[shygirl]

So it's not really about biology as such, but the gender assignment? Genuinely just trying to understand the POV here.

It's about both, you can't seperate them.

 

[weepiper]

So it's not really about biology as such, but the gender assignment? Genuinely just trying to understand the POV here.

It's tied together. The gender assignment is decided by the biology I guess.

 

[bimble]

shygirl just to be clear, i was not trying to disagree with you or call you a bad name in my post above, sorry if it came out garbled. What I meant is that i think it's brave in this climate just to express the view that there is a difference between people who have lived their whole lives as women and people who have not.

 

[weepiper]

shygirl just to be clear, i was not trying to disagree with you or call you a bad name in my post above, sorry if it came out garbled. What I meant is that i think it's brave in this climate just to express the view that there is a difference between people who have lived their whole lives as women and people who have not.

You see, why should it be brave? It's so obviously true of course there is a difference and I refuse to have anyone tell me off for believing it.

 

[TruXta]

It's tied together. The gender assignment is decided by the biology I guess.

Except when it's not. Thanks for the reply though. And to you, shygirl.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm a woman fighting for women's rights. I don't recognise your 'terf' term, but if you feel that's what I am, then you carry on. I'm really not scared of the name. It's the threats of violence, never, ever seen, as far as I can remember, in leftist circles I've moved in, that frightens me.

surprised you've not seen threats of violence in leftist circles. i well remember the rcp trying to attack anarchists in altab ali park at the end of the 1991 afa march through the east end

not to mention there have been fewer bookfairs at which there's been no real or threatened violence than where there has. and it's all too often people bringing outside beefs to the bookfair.

 

[shygirl]

I'm a woman fighting for women's rights. I don't recognise your 'terf' term, but if you feel that's what I am, then you carry on. I'm really not scared of the name. It's the threats of violence, never, ever seen, as far as I can remember, in leftist circles I've moved in, that frightens me.

Sorry Bimbe, I mis-read your post.

 

[shygirl]

surprised you've not seen threats of violence in leftist circles. i well remember the rcp trying to attack anarchists in altab ali park at the end of the 1991 afa march through the east end

Ah yes, the RCP. Sorry for that omission. Tbh, I was never a party member, found all of it too restrictive. Only orgs I was part of were Troops Out and umbrella orgs. Rigid doctrine is not for me, one cos my brain can't handle it, and two because it's too compromising having to tow (toe?) a party line.

 

[weepiper]

Except when it's not. Thanks for the reply though. And to you, shygirl.

It is though. Even babies born intersex are assigned a gender based on which sex their bodies are most like. We're socialised into our gender according to our bodies. It's not just a womb or just a vagina or just ovaries or just a vulva. Or anything that you can magically 'make' a person a woman with just by medically constructing for them. It's growing up with all of the gender expectations that go with the body.

 

[shygirl]

It is though. Even babies born intersex are assigned a gender based on which sex their bodies are most like. We're socialised into our gender according to our bodies.

Yes, that's the very premise of the challenge to gender as a social construct. We are told how we can/can't be depending on our biology. So the notion of 'feeling like a woman' is, to me, really odd, because we all learn how to be women and men according to the gender imposed upon us. Not sure if that makes sense.

 

[imposs1904]

surprised you've not seen threats of violence in leftist circles. i well remember the rcp trying to attack anarchists in altab ali park at the end of the 1991 afa march through the east end

not to mention there have been fewer bookfairs at which there's been no real or threatened violence than where there has. and it's all too often people bringing outside beefs to the bookfair.

Why were the RCP trying to attack attack anarchists? (Apologies for derailing the thread.)

 

[Pickman's model]

Why were the RCP trying to attack attack anarchists? (Apologies for derailing the thread.)

fucked if i know

 

[Fozzie Bear]

There isn't a single unified experience of being socialised as a woman though?

There will be all sorts of social variables like class, ethnicity, geography etc?

 

[weepiper]

There isn't a single unified experience of being socialised as a woman though?

There will be all sorts of social variables like class, ethnicity, geography etc?

We're all oppressed and discriminated against on the basis of our sex. Some of us are more oppressed than others.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

surprised you've not seen threats of violence in leftist circles. i well remember the rcp trying to attack anarchists in altab ali park at the end of the 1991 afa march through the east end

not to mention there have been fewer bookfairs at which there's been no real or threatened violence than where there has. and it's all too often people bringing outside beefs to the bookfair.

And the actual attack at Clapton.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

We're all oppressed and discriminated against on the basis of our sex. Some of us are more oppressed than others.

OK yes, absolutely.

And additionally women are discriminated against and oppressed because of their gender? (Some more than others).

 

[weepiper]

OK yes, absolutely.

And additionally women are discriminated against and oppressed because of their gender? (Some more than others).

The gender is the oppression.