Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[Pickman's model]

I have a lot of respect for LM so I don’t feel a need to criticise her directly. Plus her positions are better than most of the left; I was just pointing out one aspect of that analysis. Obviously it’s getting up your nose it being discussed here but surely that’s all the more reason for it?

Respect being not criticising her directly and engaging, but having a pop at her here?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

However, I'd suggest you're on dodgy ground if you think owning (or renting) property means they're not working class.

All homeowners are middle class

 

[Magnus McGinty]

All homeowners are middle class

I said ‘properties’ meaning landlordism or places above businesses. I never mentioned ‘home owners’.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Plus pimping women out (and whatever other criminality they got up to) hardly makes them salt of the earth steel workers, does it?

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Is there such a thing as the Criminal Class nowadays?

 

[Pickman's model]

Is there such a thing as the Criminal Class nowadays?

yes, you'll find them listed in who's who

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Is there such a thing as the Criminal Class nowadays?

If you exploit labour (either legally or illegally) for profit then you’re not working class. Perhaps they were hand to mouth pimps and didn’t invest in property or other businesses?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Equally bizarre is the point you take issue with. If your point is that there is a class issue at work within Asian rape crews you really are wide of the mark

They’re literally up there with the worst kind of capitalists. If you think that makes them part of our class then I suggest it’s you who is side of the mark.

 

[heebyjeeby]

yes, you'll find them listed in who's who

people you went to school with? Apparently a very posh school in North London on a hill.

 

[19force8]

They’re literally up there with the worst kind of capitalists. If you think that makes them part of our class then I suggest it’s you who is side of the mark.

In the UK the vast majority of paedophiles, rapists, etc are working class.

Because the vast majority of people are working class.

So yes, (most of) these men are/were part of our class.

Why would you deny that?

You don't give Asians the right to deny these men are Asian do you?

No, you say that this is an issue we have to face up to if we're going to win over people influenced by fascists.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

In the UK the vast majority of paedophiles, rapists, etc are working class.

Because the vast majority of people are working class.

So yes, (most of) these men are/were part of our class.

Why would you deny that?

You don't give Asians the right to deny these men are Asian do you?

No, you say that this is an issue we have to face up to if we're going to win over people influenced by fascists.

I thought there was forced prostitution involved, presumably for money?
Not proles, sorry.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

They’re literally up there with the worst kind of capitalists. If you think that makes them part of our class then I suggest it’s you who is side of the mark.

You are all over the place on this. These rape gangs are not some group of capitalist elites. If you were arguing that they represent a lumpen cancer within working class communities then you'd be on firmer ground.

You've ignored everything Lisa has to say about power, about culture, and yes about race.

The exact quote you've seized on is this "both perpetrator and victim are working class and class inequality, class prejudice and class stigma have been used in allowing this national shame to take place in that the children, the victims, were seen as having little or no value. I have written about the the way white working class women are demonised when they have relationships with men that are not white. The assumption that they are slags, prostitutes and incorrigible, and this is what is at the root of the way men of Pakistani heritage have been allowed to commit these acts. While at the same time denying the humanity of these working class girls'.

What precisely is your problem with this argument? These men knew, lived among and were even 'in relationships' with these girls. Trying to paint them as outsiders takes us nowhere.

 

[andysays]

So the latest angle is 'bloody Muslims, coming over here and becoming middle class' is it?

Amazing that it's taken you four years to think this one up Magnus McGinty. Did you come up with it all by yourself or did you have some help along the way?

 

[19force8]

I thought there was forced prostitution involved, presumably for money?
Not proles, sorry.

Definitely a river in Egypt.

 

[editor]

people you went to school with? Apparently a very posh school in North London on a hill.

Please explain why you're bringing this up and how you would know which school the poster attended.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You are all over the place on this. These rape gangs are not some group of capitalist elites. If you were arguing that they represent a lumpen cancer within working class communities then you'd be on firmer ground.

You've ignored everything Lisa has to say about power, about culture, and yes about race.

The exact quote you've seized on is this "both perpetrator and victim are working class and class inequality, class prejudice and class stigma have been used in allowing this national shame to take place in that the children, the victims, were seen as having little or no value. I have written about the the way white working class women are demonised when they have relationships with men that are not white. The assumption that they are slags, prostitutes and incorrigible, and this is what is at the root of the way men of Pakistani heritage have been allowed to commit these acts. While at the same time denying the humanity of these working class girls'.

What precisely is your problem with this argument? These men knew, lived among and were even 'in relationships' with these girls. Trying to paint them as outsiders takes us nowhere.

How are they on an equal class pegging when one property owning group are exploiting a non property owning group for money? That’s my issue with it.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

How are they on an equal class pegging when one property owning group are exploiting a non property owning group for money? That’s my issue with it.

Paedos often use money, drink, food, ‘Love’ to abuse children. It doesn’t follow they are froma different class. Would you say the Asian taxi driver paedos were on ‘a different class footing’ because they owned a car and the victims didn’t?

 

[Pickman's model]

How are they on an equal class pegging when one property owning group are exploiting a non property owning group for money? That’s my issue with it.

i think you may be mistaking a power differential for a class differential.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Paedos often use money, drink, food, ‘Love’ to abuse children. It doesn’t follow they are froma different class. Would you say the Asian taxi driver paedos were on ‘a different class footing’ because they owned a car and the victims didn’t?

Are Landlords working class then?
I think I’d rather suffer being exploited through rent rather than locked in said room to be sold for sex.

 

[likesfish]

Their was an Asian man on the news saying this wasn't about race but the Asian community needed to have a long hard look at itself because people knew this was going on and its not a one off.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

i think you may be mistaking a power differential for a class differential.

Nope

 

[19force8]

Are Landlords working class then?
I think I’d rather suffer being exploited through rent rather than locked in said room to be sold for sex.

Sorry, did I miss something here? I got the impression they were mostly poor immigrants working in the night economy because it was one step up from working minimum wage in a warehouse. Now you're telling me they're all landlords. Could you provide some evidence please.

 

[19force8]

Their was an Asian man on the news saying this wasn't about race but the Asian community needed to have a long hard look at itself because people knew this was going on and its not a one off.

I think we all have to take a long hard look at ourselves, because we all know this is going on. It's not a one off it's been a feature of British society for centuries.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Sorry, did I miss something here? I got the impression they were mostly poor immigrants working in the night economy because it was one step up from working minimum wage in a warehouse. Now you're telling me they're all landlords. Could you provide some evidence please.

They were fucking pimps and had access to properties which enabled them to exploit these girls for money. So, worse than Landlords.

 

[19force8]

They were fucking pimps and had access to properties which enabled them to exploit these girls for money. So, worse than Landlords.

So now they're not landlords but have "access to properties." Hmmm still waiting on your evidence - maybe a court report?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So now they're not landlords but have "access to properties." Hmmm still waiting on your evidence - maybe a court report?

Can you point to where I said they were Landlords? I simply used Landlords as an example of where class barriers are drawn and then you decided to be disingenuous about it as usual.

 

[19force8]

I don’t agree with all of her analysis especially where she appeared to place the perps and victims on the same class pegging despite girls in care (effectively homeless) being moved around locations to be abused (property owners) so she falls into the trap that she’s (rightfully) attempting to criticise.

How are they on an equal class pegging when one property owning group are exploiting a non property owning group for money? That’s my issue with it.

I said ‘properties’ meaning landlordism or places above businesses. I never mentioned ‘home owners’.

If you exploit labour (either legally or illegally) for profit then you’re not working class. Perhaps they were hand to mouth pimps and didn’t invest in property or other businesses?

Are Landlords working class then?
I think I’d rather suffer being exploited through rent rather than locked in said room to be sold for sex.

Probably one of the above, but I can't be arsed to parse every sentence you write as you wriggle on this particular hook. I think your real argument is with LM and maybe if you took it up with her you could get some resolution.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Probably one of the above, but I can't be arsed to parse every sentence you write as you wriggle on this particular hook. I think your real argument is with LM and maybe if you took it up with her you could get some resolution.

So you can’t point to it then? Because I can’t either. I don’t know precisely how they managed to operate. But they were using properties as part of their offending. Unless they had their rape factories in the local park?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Maybe this was all going on in family homes?
Fuck knows.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I don’t know precisely how they managed to operate.

And yet you know their class, their property portfolios and were so clear on all of this you kicked this off by attacking LM for getting it wrong.

By the way, you have stated this rape gang were landlords - over and again - on the past two pages.

A seriously odd intervention.

I note you still haven't picked your outrage up with Lisa herself. Why? Because you have jumped to the (wrong) conclusions and rather than letting it go or even admitting your OP was misjudged you have instead adopted attack as the best form of defence strategy?