Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[19force8]

So you can’t point to it then? Because I can’t either. I don’t know precisely how they managed to operate. But they were using properties as part of their offending. Unless they had their rape factories in the local park?

Sorry, forgot to put in the sarcasm alert there. I thought those quotes taken together pretty much showed you thought the abusers were landlords. But now they're just using properties as part of their offending.

Would you accept them as lumpen proletariat?

Again, I really think you should take this up with Lisa McKenzie rather than using Urban as a proxy.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

And yet you know their class, their property portfolios and were so clear on all of this you kicked this off by attacking LM for getting it wrong.

By the way, you have stated this rape gang were landlords - over and again - on the past two pages.

A seriously odd intervention.

I note you still haven't picked your outrage up with Lisa herself. Why? Because you have jumped to the (wrong) conclusions and rather than letting it go or even admitting your OP was misjudged you have instead adopted attack as the best form of defence strategy?

Who is being attacked? I thought we were just discussing it. It probably comes down to how we identify working class. I don’t put pimps into the worker category. How can they be when they’re exploiting women for money?
Perhaps the property angle was misjudged. I don’t see how though as these hundreds of young girls were clearly being abused somewhere and presumably they were managing to keep it hidden.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Again, I really think you should take this up with Lisa McKenzie rather than using Urban as a proxy.

Do you write to many journalists about their articles and never discuss them on here then?
This position of me contacting the author directly is just weird.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you write to many journalists about their articles and never discuss them on here then?
This position of me contacting the author directly is just weird.

Whatever the ins and outs of the arguments here, it is ridiculous to have a go at a poster for linking to an article and discussing it here without having contacted the author first. This is what we all do all of the time.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Do you write to many journalists about their articles and never discuss them on here then?
This position of me contacting the author directly is just weird.

LM isn't a journalist! Her website and social media are open for comment.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

LM isn't a journalist! Her website and social media are open for comment.

She’s an academic who has published books, appears on television and has had many articles in the press. And this faux pas is apparently new to me and also Urban.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Whatever the ins and outs of the arguments here, it is ridiculous to have a go at a poster for linking to an article and discussing it here without having contacted the author first. This is what we all do all of the time.

Nobody is having a go. People are asking why he hasn't discussed it with Lisa herself. That's a perfectly reasonable question.

 

[19force8]

Okay. Here are some academic papers on CSA that might help us all:

Ella Cockbain | University College London - Academia.edu

Haven't had time to read them yet.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

She’s an academic who has published books, appears on television and has had many articles in the press. And this faux pas is apparently new to me and also Urban.

Yes, basically not a journalist. She is also a supporter of class war and an activist. She is accessible.

 

[Pickman's model]

She’s an academic who has published books, appears on television and has had many articles in the press. And this faux pas is apparently new to me and also Urban.

you may recall when diamond was on about his local mosque being segregated and the women's entrance down a side alley, and i asked him if he'd done anything to try to resolve this situation to his satisfaction, but it turned out all he'd done was froth on here about it. again, more recently, there have been great long threads all about trans people and self-identity and the government's proposed reforms to the gra. again, i asked whether people had engaged with the consultation or whether they were going to froth on it here. this is another similar position, where you can only resolve your differences with lm by talking to her rather than by applying to her sentiments or beliefs she may not actually have. so by all means carry on chatting about it as you have: but please don't say that no one has ever asked people here 'have you done anything about this irl?'

 

[19force8]

She’s an academic who has published books, appears on television and has had many articles in the press. And this faux pas is apparently new to me and also Urban.

She's also an anarchist and blogger who clearly welcomes/expects engagement with her work.

 

[Pickman's model]

She's also an anarchist and blogger who clearly welcomes/expects engagement with her work.

maybe for magnus this falls under the 'never meet your heroes' prohibition.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes, basically not a journalist. She is also a supporter of class war and an activist. She is accessible.

But this is a discussion board where we discuss things. Can you point to other examples of where your suggestion is the correct convention? It’s just.. bizarre.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

you may recall when diamond was on about his local mosque being segregated and the women's entrance down a side alley, and i asked him if he'd done anything to try to resolve this situation to his satisfaction, but it turned out all he'd done was froth on here about it. again, more recently, there have been great long threads all about trans people and self-identity and the government's proposed reforms to the gra. again, i asked whether people had engaged with the consultation or whether they were going to froth on it here. this is another similar position, where you can only resolve your differences with lm by talking to her rather than by applying to her sentiments or beliefs she may not actually have. so by all means carry on chatting about it as you have: but please don't say that no one has ever asked people here 'have you done anything about this irl?'

It’s a first for me. Can you point to where else you’ve suggested people take up articles with the author rather than discuss them here? Or where anyone else has suggested similar?

 

[Pickman's model]

It’s a first for me. Can you point to where else you’ve suggested people take up articles with the author rather than discuss them here? Or where anyone else has suggested similar?

if as you profess you admire lisa then it should not be controversial to suggest that if you are at odds with her, you contact her. i am happy to provide you links to the two occasions i mention above. but it is a strange way to show respect for someone, to refuse to contact them.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

if as you profess you admire lisa then it should not be controversial to suggest that if you are at odds with her, you contact her. i am happy to provide you links to the two occasions i mention above. but it is a strange way to show respect for someone, to refuse to contact them.

Can you give me examples or not?

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you give me examples or not?

i have given you two examples of 'something similar' where people froth here instead of contacting the people they should.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

But this is a discussion board where we discuss things. Can you point to other examples of where your suggestion is the correct convention? It’s just.. bizarre.

Last month LM was attacked on here for an earlier blog post where she had noted that the DLFA and the FLAF looked similar in terms of class and clothing. She contrasted this to some others on the demo who looked like they were possessive of cultural and social capital. The rest of her article - raising important points about the massive vacuum in working class representation and her despair at how large swathes of the working class were being pushed away from our side by the middle class left and towards the right - was lost in outrage at one comment in a long blog piece. You had to conclude that this missing of the point was deliberate by some.

Now, you choose to post - wrongly interpreting one line of her piece - in a manner that again detracts from the wider points she makes.

Finally if LM wrote something that I didn't understand/agree with I would 100% clarify/raise it with her before coming on here. We aren't talking about Owen Jones here. We are talking about someone I assumed you would recognise has and is promoting pro working class politics. Someone on our side. Someone who has been battered and attacked for her politics. Can you at least understand this point?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes.

I still think it’s an interesting discussion point as to what makes people lumpen vs what makes them capitalists. These are organised gangs exploiting labour value and the commodification of young girls for money.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Whatever the ins and outs of the arguments here, it is ridiculous to have a go at a poster for linking to an article and discussing it here without having contacted the author first. This is what we all do all of the time.

How does he imagine he is going to tackle 'it', the thing that he criticises LM for if he doesn't engage with her?

Simply generalising that all of the 'left' does 'it' and saying it needs 'tackling' is rubbish and does nothing to 'tackle' the 'it' that clearly upsets him.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

This seems a bit weird. I wouldn’t send anyone comments on the internet about their work unless I knew them. It would just get interpreted as the usual internet hostility, for a start. If I felt really strongly about it I might write a response essay or something.

There are plenty of people whom I think are generally good who have written something I disagree with (LM included - though I haven’t read this particular piece yet) and I would never think of arguing directly with them on the internet.

 

[butchersapron]

This take it up with her is an odd and unwelcome angle. It would be the the death of this board. Bizarre.

 

[Shechemite]

How does he imagine he is going to tackle 'it', the thing that he criticises LM for if he doesn't engage with her?

Simply generalising that all of the 'left' does 'it' and saying it needs 'tackling' is rubbish and does nothing to 'tackle' the 'it' that clearly upsets him.

Tackle the issue, not put LM to rights

 

[Treacle Toes]

This seems a bit weird. I wouldn’t send anyone comments on the internet about their work unless I knew them. It would just get interpreted as the usual internet hostility, for a start. If I felt really strongly about it I might write a response essay or something.

There are plenty of people whom I think are generally good who have written something I disagree with (LM included - though I haven’t read this particular piece yet) and I would never think of arguing directly with them on the internet.

The point is...it isn't enough to accuse the 'left' of doing this thing he doesn't like...if someone here is doing that thing quote it and discuss it...quoting LM and accusing the rest of the 'left' of doing 'it' leads anyone where exactly?

How can it be tackled without engaging with those he perceives as doing 'it'?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The point is...it isn't enough to accuse the 'left' of doing this thing he doesn't like...if someone here is doing that thing quote it and discuss it...quoting LM and accusing the rest of the 'left' of doing 'it' leads anyone where exactly?

How can it be tackled without engaging with those he perceives as doing 'it'?

Why are you asking FM for my views after saying I should engage directly with LM?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why are you asking FM for my views after saying I should engage directly with LM?

Nope. I am asking FM his views whilst talking about you/your posts here today. There is a difference.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The point is...it isn't enough to accuse the 'left' of doing this thing he doesn't like...if someone here is doing that thing quote it and discuss it...quoting LM and accusing the rest of the 'left' of doing 'it' leads anyone where exactly?

How can it be tackled without engaging with those he perceives as doing 'it'?

I'm not 100% sure I'm with you here, but I'm talking about the idea that you shouldn't publicly criticise a particular person's arguments without trying to talk to them personally first. I think that's wrong. I'm not talking about comments about the "left".

 

[butchersapron]

Load of confused backtracking posted as never before invoked principle. Fuck that.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh no, i mentioned ** whilst they have social media. Fuck off. What do you think this place is?

 

[danny la rouge]

What a weird couple of pages.

I too am new to this rule that before disagreeing with something you take it up with the author first. That’s just odd. Odd, impractical and made up.