Rotherham child rape gangs: At least 1400 victims

[butchersapron]

But this _is_ the society that we live in, and it is _not_ possible to escape it without entirely leaving it, which is effectively impossible. People _do_ say the exact same thing about capitalism without implying that it’s the only possible state of affairs and can’t possibly be changed.

I've seen people suggest a path into this society to understand how it works in order to get beyond it - that's not what 'just men' does. It, in fact, does the opposite of that. I've never seen anyone engaged in this endeavour offer it's just capitalism. I've seen people attacked by those engaged in that for ahistorical essentalism though.

 

[Pickman's model]

Only because you're making a very uncharitable interpretation. Inescapable doesn't have to mean that it determines everything men do, it can simply mean that it's an inescapable frame of reference, amongst other things.

Where are women in spanglechick's scheme? It's not like this is all about men, it's not like the patriarchy is the same in every place or time, or that women play no part in resisting or perpetuating the system. Things are, as I see it, more complex than spanglechick says

 

[spanglechick]

Where are women in spanglechick's scheme? It's not like this is all about men, it's not like the patriarchy is the same in every place or time, or that women play no part in resisting or perpetuating the system. Things are, as I see it, more complex than spanglechick says

Women play a huge part in sustaining the patriarchy.

But they overwhelmingly don't feature in the category "people who rape children", so I didn't say "it's just people".

The biggest unifying factor in child rapists is their gender, and not their religion or ethnicity. On a thread where people were trying to make it about religion and ethnicity, I used the phrase "it's just men" as part of a long, considered post to point out that the religion/ethnicity aspect is something of a sideshow and instead we should be looking a the fact that these crimes are almost always carried out by men.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Look at what happens to women during wars.. how many women were and are raped during war times by men who then return to their families afterwards and lived their lives as regular citizens...?
Rape is and was a regular occurrnce in war zones.
Men don't always broadcast how they treat women ...the good they do and / or the bad...
I'm not dissing all men...but rape happens much more often to women and young girls and boys than it does to men... and the vast majority of rapes are committed by men.
spanglechick has a point.




"Rape Crisis England & Wales headline statistics 2016-17:

" Rape Crisis Centres across our network responded to their highest ever number of helpline calls during the year - 202,666 in total, or nearly 4,000 a week.
Rape Crisis specialist services were accessed by 67,059 individuals, an increase of 16% from 2015-16.
Rape Crisis Centres provided in excess of 450,000 sessions of specialist support, including advocacy, emotional support and counselling, an increase of 29% since 2015-16.
Three-quarters of all adult service users contacted Rape Crisis Centres about sexual violence that took place at least 12 months earlier; 42% were adult survivors of child sexual abuse.
The largest group that contact Rape Crisis Centres, now over half of service users (51%), is those who prefer to self-refer. This pattern has remained consistent over the past six years and continues to demonstrate the necessity for funded independent services.
93 per cent of service users were female.
Where age is known, 2,651 were aged 15 or under, an increase of 55% on last year; those aged under 25 represented 36% of service users. Over 30 times more children reported multiple assaults than last year - 904 compared with 29 in 2015-16.
Where ethnicity is known, 20% of service users identified as Black or Minority Ethnic.
25% of all service users identified as Disabled.
The Rape Crisis England & Wales website received nearly 9 million hits during the year and an average of 32,765 unique visitors per month."

Rape statistics

 

[Pickman's model]

Women play a huge part in sustaining the patriarchy.

But they overwhelmingly don't feature in the category "people who rape children", so I didn't say "it's just people".

The biggest unifying factor in child rapists is their gender, and not their religion or ethnicity. On a thread where people were trying to make it about religion and ethnicity, I used the phrase "it's just men" as part of a long, considered post to point out that the religion/ethnicity aspect is something of a sideshow and instead we should be looking a the fact that these crimes are almost always carried out by men.

Yeh. I didn't take issue with your 2047 as you'll see if you look back

 

[butchersapron]

Women play a huge part in sustaining the patriarchy.

But they overwhelmingly don't feature in the category "people who rape children", so I didn't say "it's just people".

The biggest unifying factor in child rapists is their gender, and not their religion or ethnicity. On a thread where people were trying to make it about religion and ethnicity, I used the phrase "it's just men" as part of a long, considered post to point out that the religion/ethnicity aspect is something of a sideshow and instead we should be looking a the fact that these crimes are almost always carried out by men.

You've used exactly the logic of the only person making it about 'ethnicity' though - just with a different villain. That's not the way to challenge people like him. And that's why i'm not splitting hairs but am, in fact, highlighting a fundamental difference in politics.

 

[bemused]

As an aside, I think it's interesting how local authorities pretty much used this as an excuse - 'oh we couldn't really do anything as we'd be accused of racism'. I think that really was an excuse - they had a clear statutory duty and they failed large numbers of working class girls.

It is clear that authorities wrap themselves around an axle rather than face up to the reality that a specific community was over-represented in the proportion of men committing these crimes. It leads them to not only let down hundreds of victims but also in some cases suggest they brought it on themselves. A consequence of facing this problem head-on may be that racist halfwits exploit these poor womens' cases but that's a relatively small price to pay to prevent this happening again.

 

[campanula]

I think we need to be a bit more forensic as to exactly why this conflation of class, religion, anomie and contempt occurred in such dense numbers, for 30 years. Because it wasn't just men, it was a perfect storm of years of neglect, despair, fear and entitlement and where complicity is multi-layered and the narratives shift - the victims were not 'just girls' but a symptom of dysfunction on every level.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think we need to be a bit more forensic as to exactly why this conflation of class, religion, anomie and contempt occurred in such dense numbers, for 30 years. Because it wasn't just men, it was a perfect storm of years of neglect, despair, fear and entitlement and where complicity is multi-layered and the narratives shift - the victims were not 'just girls' but a symptom of dysfunction on every level.

very much so

 

[butchersapron]

I think we need to be a bit more forensic as to exactly why this conflation of class, religion, anomie and contempt occurred in such dense numbers, for 30 years. Because it wasn't just men, it was a perfect storm of years of neglect, despair, fear and entitlement and where complicity is multi-layered and the narratives shift - the victims were not 'just girls' but a symptom of dysfunction on every level.

Bingo

 

[Baronage-Phase]

I think we need to be a bit more forensic as to exactly why this conflation of class, religion, anomie and contempt occurred in such dense numbers, for 30 years. Because it wasn't just men, it was a perfect storm of years of neglect, despair, fear and entitlement and where complicity is multi-layered and the narratives shift - the victims were not 'just girls' but a symptom of dysfunction on every level.

It's called fear

 

[Pickman's model]

It's called fear

Not sure that's more forensic, pt

 

[butchersapron]

It's called fear

The idea that these girls were abused - in the same way the boys in care homes in north wales, the midlands and wider afield - because of some generic post-hoc response on the part of others is horrifying. In each and every case the shared theme is lack of social power and ability to be taken seriously by a system designed around establishing and then reproducing another class' social power. wtf has fear to do with this?


I don't think you fully appreciated campanula's clever extension of the use of 'just' either.

 

[likesfish]

this specific type of offending is an Asian male thing 75% of the convictions were of Asian men and they make up less than 6% of the uk population.
white male nonces offend in different ways

 

[campanula]

this specific type of offending is an Asian male thing 75% of the convictions were of Asian men and they make up less than 6% of the uk population.

Well yes, in this case, the perpetrators were Asian males...which is both obvious and a bit meaningless because they were particular Asian men, in a very specific time and place, (situated within a culture which is largely opaque to me) on course for a collision with a segment of children who were basically discarded, almost invisible...how the fuck have we got to this? Layers and layers of culpability. Accountability at the level of individuals...or an accounting of (mis)managed, systemic fail, I don't mind, onwards and upwards...but I do care that an ongoing dialogue is still being had.

 

[Pickman's model]

this specific type of offending is an Asian male thing 75% of the convictions were of Asian men and they make up less than 6% of the uk population.
white male nonces offend in different ways

Pakistanis make up something like 6% of Asians. What's your point?

 

[Wilf]

this specific type of offending is an Asian male thing 75% of the convictions were of Asian men and they make up less than 6% of the uk population.
white male nonces offend in different ways

Well campanula has answered this better than I can, but I'll still wade in: so, overall a score draw between ethnic groups in terms of overall nonceyness*, but clear patterns with regard to collective rapists. One of those complex layers that Campanula spoke about is the economy and occupational segregation - for example the staggering figure that 1/4 of all British Pakistani men work primarily as taxi drivers, along with generally lower rates of employment for some Muslim women (but also significant success in management posts).
Key areas: Employment | Equality and Human Rights Commission
Haven't typed that very clearly, but I'm getting at the facts of significant polarisation within Asian/Pakistani/Muslim communities - and between those groups and other groups in UK society. When you factor in the housing segregation allowed by largely Labour authorities, school segregation, you see significant areas of segregation and different experiences within what is in many ways a more tolerant integrated society. When you factor in lots of other layers you begin to get to where we are today - but also to why it's pointless to make generalisations about what any particular group are 'like'.

* For any passing pks, yes, that is me being flippant about a serious subject.

 

[TruXta]

it's pointless to make generalisations about what any particular group are 'like'.

All cops are still bastards.

 

[The39thStep]

All cops are still bastards.

If it wasnt for the bastard cops the EDL would have run riot in Manchester when they were at their peak

 

[TruXta]

If it wasnt for the bastard cops the EDL would have run riot in Manchester when they were at their peak

Even bastards can be useful at times.

 

[Wilf]

All cops are still bastards.

That's no generalisation - universal truth.

 

[likesfish]

Well yes, in this case, the perpetrators were Asian males....

along with THE MAJORITY OF THESE TYPE OF OFFENCES, 75% of gang grooming are Asian

 

[Pickman's model]

If it wasnt for the bastard cops the EDL would have run riot in Manchester when they were at their peak

Bastard huns ran riot in manchester

 

[pk]

I came here to spout some reasonably offensive shit and get some balls rolling.

It was always my role to rile.

I selfishly need to get some shit straight in my own head and occasionally I’ll come here and cunt everyone off because I am angry and frustrated, and scared, just like everyone.

If I shared some Shitler-freak right wing nutjob leak earlier then upon my own head be it. I was flinging incoherent rage, it’s clearly the modus operandi I prefer. ??

I am not a racist. I love the minutae of everything, and clearly my motivations here are not what you think.

I need to provoke an internal monologue by dropping F-bombs here, sometimes.

I know I push it too far. That’s the point.

But this is still a good and essential conversation. I’ll fuck off now for a few days.

See you in a bit.

Please continue.

 

[Pickman's model]

I came here to spout some reasonably offensive shit and get some balls rolling.

It was always my role to rile.

I selfishly need to get some shit straight in my own head and occasionally I’ll come here and cunt everyone off because I am angry and frustrated, and scared, just like everyone.

If I shared some Shitler-freak right wing nutjob leak earlier then upon my own head be it. I was flinging incoherent rage, it’s clearly the modus operandi I prefer. ??

I am not a racist. I love the minutae of everything, and clearly my motivations here are not what you think.

I need to provoke an internal monologue by dropping F-bombs here, sometimes.

I know I push it too far. That’s the point.

But this is still a good and essential conversation. I’ll fuck off now for a few days.

See you in a bit.

Please continue.

Maybe it is your role to rile. But if you didn't want to look like someone a pint short of a gallon maybe you'd post something that didn't make you look like a fool. Your posts all make you look a right wing twat. Not just this time. Not just last time. Every fucking time. A man who measures his success by his house value and who bolsters his claims from evidence supplied by people he affects to oppose and does all this to stir up his internal monologue? Such a man might most kindly be described as a wanker with no redeeming qualities

 

[pk]

No one is 'just men' - there are men socialised into and acting out particular norms/expectations in specific determined situations. The latter part is key here - to suggest 'just men' is to ignore that. The same way this alt-right clown says 'just muslims'.

I’m not “alt-right” you idiot child.

How was Birmingham? I was in Paris.

You’re as bad as the fuckers you fight.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m not “alt-right” you idiot child.

How was Birmingham? I was in Paris.

You’re as bad as the fuckers you fight.

we only have to put up with you on an irregular basis...

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Grooming Gangs: Focus on protecting children, not Far Right agendas.

This from AFN manages to combine some good points (similar to those raised by people here) with whataboutery.

(Also a quick thank you from me to Wilf and The39thStep for some excellent contributions to this thread)

 

[Thimble Queen]

Grooming Gangs: Focus on protecting children, not Far Right agendas.

This from AFN manages to combine some good points (similar to those raised by people here) with whataboutery.

That's a really good piece. Thanks for sharing.

 

[justin credible]

I have not read the thread and have no idea whether anyone has already posted this link, but I think it is helpful in understanding what is and has been happening in some parts of the UK and how it can be addressed

Battling a new brand of pimp