Robert Fisk: Even I question the 'truth' about 9/11

[ymu]

Before trying, we need to know to whom it was addressed.

Since wahabiites consider all non-wahabiite Muslims to be bad Muslims, there's a perfectly coherent explanation. Atta's Catholic equivalent might well have spelled out the details of the Mass, out of contempt for the bad Catholocs he was addressing...

It was addressed to his co-conspirators. I don't know if he thought of them as bad Muslims, or whether this letter would make sense if he did. Do any of the Muslims on the thread think this is plausible?

 

[Aldebaran]

It was addressed to his co-conspirators. I don't know if he thought of them as bad Muslims, or whether this letter would make sense if he did. Do any of the Muslims on the thread think this is plausible?

No. It doesn't make any sense in no matter which context.

salaam.

 

[ymu]

Ta.

 

[editor]

No. It doesn't make any sense in no matter which context.

Nether does twisting a religion around to justify the murder of thousands of innocent people. Perhaps he was off his head when he wrote it. Perhaps he was in shock. Perhaps he didn't write it. Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?

 

[editor]

Remember, Fisk isn't saying there's a MIHOP/LIHOP style conspiracy here - he's saying there are some odd details that encourage conspiracy theories while they remain unanswered.

But. they've. been. answered.

 

[Aldebaran]

Nether does twisting a religion around to justify the murder of thousands of innocent people. Perhaps he was off his head when he wrote it. Perhaps he was in shock. Perhaps he didn't write it. Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?

I does in context of what we discuss in this thread. It is completely logical that someone like Fisk questions its contenance, hence its origin.

salaam.

 

[Crispy]

And with fisk being associated with doubting the official narrative, it seems that the bin button has been taken out of the equation...

Oh give it a break. The last 911 thread ran for months and months, with 1000's of posts.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I'm just asking you why you're stating again and again that all of the issues he raised have been answered

I'd love to see you pull up the quote that says that.

The thing is that so many of his questions have been answered here, let alone in the total extremis of the internet, for an investigative journalist it's rather disappointing.

!All

His entire arguement is undermined, if he can't be trusted to get those points right then he can't be trusted to have any others right either.

He demands answers, in some cases they exist and i know them to, in other cases he demands them and i do not know if they're they do exist or not, but i can't trust his assertion that they don't. That irritates me.

Explicitly !All

I KNOW that he gets large portions of the article wrong. He cannot be trusted to get the rest right. He didn't even read the executive summary of the NIST report yet makes statements of it. If warren's right with the quote above it doesn't really look like he read the letter either.

Learn to read.

If you do find a quote it'll be from me and Stanley (i think) discussing the ones i do know that he got wrong, the subset of the questions he asks. But please, show me again and again.

 

[ymu]

But. they've. been. answered.

And Fisk clearly isn't (yet) aware of that. I was paraphrasing his approach to the article; I didn't intend to comment on whether he was correct in his belief that they were unanswered.

 

[butchersapron]

:d

 

[Bob_the_lost]

And Fisk clearly isn't (yet) aware of that. I was paraphrasing his approach to the article; I didn't intend to comment on whether he was correct in his belief that they were unanswered.

THEN HE SHOULDN'T BLOODY WRITE ARTICLES ON THE TOPIC.

His approach was sloppy, ignorant and deeply disappointing. Other than the occasional long word it was better suited to the Sun than a broadsheet.

 

[Crispy]

I doubt even that I am writing this.

salaam.

Have you considered taking up philosophy?

 

[Aldebaran]

But. they've. been. answered.

What I read in that article is that he doesn't deny that but also doesn't overlook that these answers don't convince some people with the educational background to judge on this and that there are still puzzling details.

Like that letter and also the mix up of hijacker's names with living persons. Of course the latter can be easily explained but I don't think it has any official explanation yet?

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

Have you considered taking up philosophy?

Philosophy, both Muslim and Western, was part of my formal education package
I prefer to develop my own reflections though.

salaam.

 

[ymu]

I'd love to see you pull up the quote that says that.


!All

Explicitly !All



Learn to read.

If you do find a quote it'll be from me and Stanley (i think) discussing the ones i do know that he got wrong, the subset of the questions he asks. But please, show me again and again.

Fair enough. I read you as dismissing everything he said because it was all answered, whereas you've actually said you don't trust the rest because you know most of it has been answered.

Apologies.

 

[editor]

Like that letter and also the mix up of hijacker's names with living persons. Of course the latter can be easily explained but I don't think it has any official explanation yet?

Are you expecting to have every single minor question related to 9/11 to be fully answered with a comprehensive "official explanation" that is to everyone's satisfaction, then?

I think you might be in for a long wait.

 

[Aldebaran]

Are you expecting to have every single minor question related to 9/11 to be fully answered with a comprehensive "official explanation" that is to everyone's satisfaction, then?

I'm not studying the issue, but for the sake of clarity, don't you think such obvious discrepancies should better be resolved? It gives only food to conspiracy theories (and not only in the West).

salaam.

 

[editor]

I'm not studying the issue, but for the sake of clarity, don't you think such obvious discrepancies should better be resolved? It gives only food to conspiracy theories (and not only in the West).

It only gives food to conspiracy theories if people choose to completely ignore the overwhelming body of evidence and expert analysis available and focus entirely on some truly minor discrepancy in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes, but that is what CP's do and thrive on.

In a broader context: Any evidence is to be considered relative until some time has passed and historians (or other qualified/experienced investigators) can take a closer -and undetached - look. In many cases it always remains difficult up to impossible to come to a decisive conclusion or consensus.
No doubt additional reasons why CP's can exist and in some cases have an amount of dedicated "believers".
So yes, I would say that clearing up rather easy details should be encouraged at all stages of investigation.

salaam.

 

[Signal 11]

No. It [the letter] doesn't make any sense in no matter which context.

What do you think of Juan Cole's analysis of it?

 

[Aldebaran]

It looks a long article, I shall take a close look at it later today. At first sight he seems to comment on a section of one among a few released texts. (I saw to date none of them. Maybe Fisks comment addressed an other one?)

salaam.

 

[kyser_soze]

Of course there are masive holes in the official story - fuck's sake, there was a massive NLC strike on US soil while Bush was on watch as President, a breach in US security that really only has a comparison with Pearl Harbour. So yes, I think that there is a cover-up - I think the reason behind it was to protect the asses of the administration because when the attacks happened, they were caught with their pants down, strategically speaking.

As I've repeatedly mentioned, at the time Condi was NSA head, was a Cold Warrior and believed that the biggest long term strategic threat was from Russia; there was an inbuilt bias AGAINST the intel and analysis provided by the outgoing Clinton administration, as well as against the various appointees in the CIA, FBI etc; finally, George Tenet was not liked, his opinions were not welcome at the Condi Rice strategic table.

Bob Woodward recounts the (unconfirmed) details of a meeting attended by Bush, Rice and Tenet where Tenet told them there was a high probability of an attack, and his advice was rejected. Knowing the strategic position of the US Administration at the time - was becoming more isolationist, leaning more to unilateral action, and that the primary advisor on National Security was not of the opinion that Islamism was a major threat to the US at the time.

As the Commander in Chief and the then-head of the NSA - the two people most responsible for US security, do you really think that either of them want it to come out that their own dogma and personal dislike of individuals was the prime factor behind the inaction prior to, and on the day?

 

[fela fan]

Oh give it a break. The last 911 thread ran for months and months, with 1000's of posts.

I'm sorry crispy, but it was a valid point. Most people here get labelled CTers or whatever. This can hardly be levelled at fisk. And this is one of the weaknesses of political life. It's not what you say, but who you are and how you say it.

And i've been here for five years now, and i repeat, most 911 threads got binned, and some even got wiped from the slate as if they'd never even existed.

 

[fela fan]

... and expert analysis ...

Expert?? What a laugh. Look, there's an expert, he will know, he can tell us the truth, he can tell us how it all is.

And all we've got to do is BELIEVE him, and all is fine and dandy with the world. Because there's no way in the world he could be wrong.

Beware the 'expert' editor.

 

[ymu]

It looks a long article, I shall take a close look at it later today. At first sight he seems to comment on a section of one among a few released texts. (I saw to date none of them. Maybe Fisks comment addressed an other one?)

salaam.

I'm not 100%, but it does look like the same document that Fisk refers to (instructions to perform ablutions and say the morning prayer). Cole appendicises the text at the bottom of the page, but I think there might be another page with the text of a prayer that Fisk refers to?

I haven't got a hope of seeing it from an Islamic point of view - but it certainly looks like a reasonable exposition of brainwashing techniques and how pieces of Islam appear to have been used to achieve this. The contextual bits about how AQ operates certainly seems like a decent explanation for the drinking and strip clubs hich CTers raise a lot.

I'd be interested to know what you think Aldebaran. Whether it makes sense culturally if examined from this perspective.

 

[kyser_soze]

Ah is this where we get the 'patsy' argument? Where we get someone who argues that the US is the great evil, piss everyone off etc etc, and then the same person tells us that 9/11 had to be sponsored by the US because a real muslim would never conceive of such an action...

Load of old bollocks - I remember having that argument eons ago on a previous 9/11 thread...

 

[ymu]

Ah is this where we get the 'patsy' argument? Where we get someone who argues that the US is the great evil, piss everyone off etc etc, and then the same person tells us that 9/11 had to be sponsored by the US because a real muslim would never conceive of such an action...

Load of old bollocks - I remember having that argument eons ago on a previous 9/11 thread...

If that's referring to me, you couldn't be more wrong. Sceptic in knee jerk reaction on urban 9/11 thread shock!

You could always try reading the article I was referring to. Someone linked to it earlier as a candidate for one of the answers Fisk is missing. It doesn't make a patsy argument either.

If I've misunderstood you, I apologise.

 

[Aldebaran]

Ah is this where we get the 'patsy' argument? Where we get someone who argues that the US is the great evil, piss everyone off etc etc, and then the same person tells us that 9/11 had to be sponsored by the US because a real muslim would never conceive of such an action...

Load of old bollocks - I remember having that argument eons ago on a previous 9/11 thread...

Not with me you have and it obviously escaped you that we are discussing the parts of a letter Fisk refers to which -when I read his description thereof - are extremely unlikely for a Muslim.
Even if one follows the idea that it is part of repetitive brainwashing technique, those involved would know which Quranic texts are refered to and in my idea especially if they are used to give - in their minds - legality to their actions. A "written reminder" at the moment they prepare to carry out this carefully prepared and thaught out plan is in my view a very odd move to make.(but then, I am not a suicidal brainwashed)

I'd be interested to know what you think Aldebaran. Whether it makes sense culturally if examined from this perspective.

Thank you for your interst. I'm very occupied the coming days so I don't know if I manage to reply but in a few days.
I also would like to find out what the people Cole mentioned think about it (and find the whole letter).
At first sight: He looks at influence of sufism. Such influence isn't anything uncommon in Muslim societies.

salaam.

 

[ymu]

Ah is this where we get the 'patsy' argument? Where we get someone who argues that the US is the great evil, piss everyone off etc etc, and then the same person tells us that 9/11 had to be sponsored by the US because a real muslim would never conceive of such an action...

Are you trying to say that suicide bombing is a perfectly normal action for a Muslim and no kind of special techniques would be needed by the handlers to ensure that they went through with it?

I have to say, it's not something I'd consider doing under normal circumstances. But then, I'm not one of those pesky murdering Ayrab Muslim types.

 

[Aldebaran]

I found what I think is "internet facsimile" of the letter Fisk refers to but at first sight it begins with the second (or third?) page.
It has some blackened parts (maybe the writer did that), the quality is not good and the format very small too. I shall see what I can make of it or maybe find a better reproduction. I shall come back to this next week. "Life" calls

salaam.