Remainers: When are you taking to the streets?

[sim667]

thats not undeliberate imo. Maybe I'm paranoid but the obfuscation of basic political terminology really does seem a bit sinister to me. They. You know They. They don't want anyone to clock the terminology and challenge them. Engineering a reality through control of language, accepted discourse and education. Doesn't work though cos people aren't bots and won't buy it.

should I put on my foil hat yet

Now the 32.8 million EU regulation on tinfoil conspiracy no longer applies, you should at least need less tinfoil.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[DotCommunist]

Now the 32.8 million EU regulation on tinfoil conspiracy no longer applies, you should at least need less tinfoil.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Maybe we will have to start using cling film instead. What a ballache

 

[sim667]

I was just expressing a view that extreme views are not really helpful. I see them as just reducing the chance of people coming to any consensus.

Some extreme views are just as useless as moderate views, like wise some extreme views and moderate views aren't useless. There's no consensus that you can claim on which is which.


Edit: fucking tapatalk signature bollocks removed.

 

[Greebo]

I'd be prepared to take a punt that the 21% who voted Leave in Lambeth maps very closely to C2s and DEs economically. I live in a central London borough that also voted strongly to Remain, but all the chat on the council estate I live next to was for Leave. There was a clear class divide*, even going as far as the Remainers stall outside Waitrose getting repeatedly heckled by people using what's left of the market. <snip>

Not entirely - long term dirt poor, thoroughly aware of the benefits situation, and still voted remain.

 

[Anju]

thats not undeliberate imo. Maybe I'm paranoid but the obfuscation of basic political terminology really does seem a bit sinister to me. They. You know They. They don't want anyone to clock the terminology and challenge them. Engineering a reality through control of language, accepted discourse and education. Doesn't work though cos people aren't bots and won't buy it.

should I put on my foil hat yet

I think it is more a case of people just not knowing what the labels mean. I am not trying to insult anyone but I thought anarchists were more or less extinct. I don't know exactly what the beliefs are. I don't know what the different left factions differ on. Not asking for an explanation but will read up when I can.

 

[Anju]

Some extreme views are just as useless as moderate views, like wise some extreme views and moderate views aren't useless. There's no consensus that you can claim on which is which

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That potentially makes all useless and then we are stuck

 

[Casually Red]

Well the ones I know don't. One of them does not want to go back whilst the Law and Justice party are in power. But she also sees the Out vote here as a low for the Europe.

My point is that aliens did not elect these far right, right populist, anti immigration nationalist parties right across Europe. Poles did. Hungarians did . Dutch did . French and Finns, Slovaks, Austrians , Danes ....the Europeans did . Europeans absolutely no different from the ones who come to work here . Farage is a feckin teddy bear compared to these politicians and parties who are the new norm in Europe outside some cosmopolitan capitals. Mainstream now in many places in Europe .

To see all these liberals wailing and crying about how un European and racist this decision is makes me suspect they know very little about Europe. Asides from whatever hipster bubble they've hung out in. It's extremely mild compared to what goes on in the rest of Europe. And the eu is certainly not making it any better . It's notable that in Dublin some months back there was an unsuccessful attempt to hold a pegida rally. The ONLY people stupid enough to turn up for it were east European.


All this " national shame " bollocks is an absolute joke. If there was that much shame and anger about poverty , disenfranchisement and unemployment things might be a lot better. But no...it's " these people..those people...people with no stake here ..taking from us " . The snooty bastards .
If anyone spoke that way about migrants they'd be called a bigot. And rightly so. But it's a form of bigotry nonetheless. I see absolutely nothing enlightened tolerant or progressive about this remain thing at all .

 

[Anju]

As much as I support staying in EU the way Greece was treated is a case that outers can use. The Greeks elected a left government and the IMF, EU, ECB used there power to destroy the will of the people.

It's a better case to use than the immigration one that was use in UK a lot.

They didn't destroy the will of the people. The government capitulated. I. Thought the people were prepared to go through with leaving, abandoning the euro. Whatever it took.

 

[sim667]

That potentially makes all useless and then we are stuck

Sounds about right.

 

[Casually Red]

I have been reading Vanis Varoufakis. He is highly critical of how EU works. But argues for staying and pushing for a radical Europe.

I like him, it's a reasoned argument, but I also think he missed the boat . I dont think it's possible with this set up. It's rotten to the core , undemocratic and highly resistant to change . Run by gangsters. It needs to fall . Maybe then something half ways decent can be constructed to replace it . If things carry on the way they're going leftism is finished and all there will be is competition between gangsters and fascists .

 

[Greebo]

Do you know any Poles? The Poles I know abhor the present government in Poland.

Same goes for French friends re the far right in France.

And that explains (partly) why they've come to live in the UK. My devoutly Catholic Polish sister in law can't stomach the way that RC values (ie the anti abortion law) are being forced on everyone in her homeland by the current increasingly right wing government there.

 

[Anju]

Sounds about right.

So we need some new thoughts. We probably don't have long left. I can't remember how to work it out but the size of the world economy doubles very quickly even with moderate growth. Add population growth and we will be fighting each other fairly soon.

 

[yield]

So we need some new thoughts. We probably don't have long left.

There are plenty of new and old ideas that haven't been tried. But there's not the will to try them.

"Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them."

I can't remember how to work it out but the size of the world economy doubles very quickly even with moderate growth. Add population growth and we will be fighting each other fairly soon.

70 years and divide it by the growth rate. That's how long it takes to double.

 

[Casually Red]

Marching angrily on the streets demanding to be ruled by this luxembourgian bozo , who's main qualification seems to be a background in helping millionaires hide their loot from the taxman .

 

[treelover]

The use of the word liberal as an insult by some on the left was going on long before the American right wing began using it. They are also two different meanings of that word, or at least there are different connotations when a leftwinger employs the term.



Eta: which sounds remarkably similar to some the arguments for the EU as a protector of workers' rights. 'Thank God the EU didn't beat me'

Phil Ochs Love me I'm a liberal:

İ cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

 

[treelover]

 

[treelover]

The ward by ward breakdown of Bristol shows the wealthier, more bohemian central areas voting heavily Remain with the outer estates and suburbs voting Leave. Swathes of south Bristol (heavily working class, traditionally the poorest sector of the city and solidly Labour since forever) were Leave. The ward I grew up in (Avonmouth and Lawrence Weston) was nearly 60-40 Leave iirc. Again, traditionally working class, very white, forever on the periphery of the city geographically, culturally and economically.

Predictably, I have seen plenty of disparaging comments from inner Bristol dwellers about Lawrence Weston, Fishponds,, Hartcliffe, Knowle West etc and how they voted.

South Gloucestershire, which contains much of the north and east Bristol suburbs which are also in part trad white working class (Filton, Kingswood, Staple Hill, Yate etc) voted to Leave. Not seen breakdowns of the vote so not sure how they split when compared to the rural parts of the authority.

It illustrates much of what I've been saying for some time about Bristol and the gaping divide between trendy, funky, liberal, gentrified inner Bristol and the outer areas full of Bristolians who feel pushed out of the picture economically and socially

Happening in many large Cities.

 

[sim667]

So we need some new thoughts. We probably don't have long left. I can't remember how to work it out but the size of the world economy doubles very quickly even with moderate growth. Add population growth and we will be fighting each other fairly soon.

According to you out of the box "or extremist thinking" is "useless"..... So well done for repressing the ideas of the future, whilst simultaneously complaining that there are no good ideas.

 

[Pickman's model]

Phil Ochs Love me I'm a liberal:

İ cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crain?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like Korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Jello biafra / mojo nixon version imo better

 

[Pickman's model]

So we need some new thoughts. We probably don't have long left. I can't remember how to work it out but the size of the world economy doubles very quickly even with moderate growth. Add population growth and we will be fighting each other fairly soon.

You clearly haven't been paying attention to the middle east, the DRC, Iraq, Syria, parts of India, Afghanistan etc etc

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it is more a case of people just not knowing what the labels mean. I am not trying to insult anyone but I thought anarchists were more or less extinct. I don't know exactly what the beliefs are. I don't know what the different left factions differ on. Not asking for an explanation but will read up when I can.

Are you sure you've been a member here since 2002, you've not simply nicked anju's login and started posting?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I'm not my good fellow, it is a well known fact that democracy in the UK is based around electing representatives who then work with paid experts to develop the policies that they think will benefit the country, if we don't like what they develop we chuck them out at the next election. I don't know why EU membership was considered to be a different matter.

Your "well-known fact" about policy formulation is about 30 years out of date, Shermy baby. "Independent" think-tanks are so much a part of the process that experts rarely get a look in, unless they're saying something that the political parties want to hear - for instance Giddens and his "Third Way". Ideas are rarely drawn from academe or business nowadays, and where they are, they're mediated in such a way as to be amenable to existing government aims, rather than promoting change.

 

[Anudder Oik]

See the reaction when one woman holds a LEAVE placard in Whitehall as the bremain protest comes by. Go to minute 1.



Quote "You are destroying our country put that banner down".

And, when asked to say why we should stay "We are a unity, we should be proud, don't talk about trade or anything".

 

[Idris2002]

Marching angrily on the streets demanding to be ruled by this luxembourgian bozo , who's main qualification seems to be a background in helping millionaires hide their loot from the taxman .

He may not be the hero Gotham wants, but he's the hero Gotham needs.

 

[Casually Red]

I have been reading Vanis Varoufakis. He is highly critical of how EU works. But argues for staying and pushing for a radical Europe.

I think this is a pretty decent critique of Varoufakis approach . Which he himself admits is " utopian " . Among other things it points out that no matter what he tries he's shafted because he refuses to consider the pull out option . That supra national collectivity is hamstrung and hampered by a raft of hurdles etc . Definitely worth reading .

Why Varoufakis’ DiEM2025 is fighting the wrong fight

 

[Gramsci]

My point is that aliens did not elect these far right, right populist, anti immigration nationalist parties right across Europe. Poles did. Hungarians did . Dutch did . French and Finns, Slovaks, Austrians , Danes ....the Europeans did . Europeans absolutely no different from the ones who come to work here . Farage is a feckin teddy bear compared to these politicians and parties who are the new norm in Europe outside some cosmopolitan capitals. Mainstream now in many places in Europe .

To see all these liberals wailing and crying about how un European and racist this decision is makes me suspect they know very little about Europe. Asides from whatever hipster bubble they've hung out in. It's extremely mild compared to what goes on in the rest of Europe. And the eu is certainly not making it any better . It's notable that in Dublin some months back there was an unsuccessful attempt to hold a pegida rally. The ONLY people stupid enough to turn up for it were east European.


All this " national shame " bollocks is an absolute joke. If there was that much shame and anger about poverty , disenfranchisement and unemployment things might be a lot better. But no...it's " these people..those people...people with no stake here ..taking from us " . The snooty bastards .
If anyone spoke that way about migrants they'd be called a bigot. And rightly so. But it's a form of bigotry nonetheless. I see absolutely nothing enlightened tolerant or progressive about this remain thing at all .

I have covered some of this in previous posts here. I get the feeling that in London the high In vote was across classes. I notice that most of the posters here who I know from the Brixton boards are retainers.

It's not just hipsters or middle class liberals. My working class friends in London all wanted In due to the way the debate banged on about immigration.

 

[butchersapron]

I have covered some of this in previous posts here. I get the feeling that in London the high In vote was across classes. I notice that most of the posters here who I know from the Brixton boards are retainers.

It's not just hipsters or middle class liberals. My working class friends in London all wanted In due to the way the debate banged on about immigration.

Remainers were the main people who put the focus on immigration by insisting that leave voters were racists hiding behind a suggestion that capitalist management of immigration was benefiting certain people and harming others.. In a city of immigration that will obv pay off. It's caused lot of shit outside london.

 

[The39thStep]

I have covered some of this in previous posts here. I get the feeling that in London the high In vote was across classes. I notice that most of the posters here who I know from the Brixton boards are retainers.

It's not just hipsters or middle class liberals. My working class friends in London all wanted In due to the way the debate banged on about immigration.

So the nature of the EU itself wasn't an issue? or how it has forced austerity in workers in other countries and sanctioned those governments who failed or resisted in reducing the deficit wasn't an issue?

 

[Casually Red]

I have covered some of this in previous posts here. I get the feeling that in London the high In vote was across classes. I notice that most of the posters here who I know from the Brixton boards are retainers.

It's not just hipsters or middle class liberals. My working class friends in London all wanted In due to the way the debate banged on about immigration.

Sure, and I wouldn't say that for a minute . When I'm referring to liberals etc I'm in the main referring to these chattering pundits and the like . But at the same time we can't really be expected to accept that every second person in Britain is an ignorant racist . Any more than we can accept everyone who voted remain is a tofu munching fixy upper riding cup cake monger .
I voted out without even once bothering to listen to scum like gove or Johnson. I'm sure I'm far from the only one .

The late Bob Crow and Tony Benn had been firmly anti eu for many years. A lot of people listened to them . There were all sorts of reasons why people voted out . And even being anti lassez faire immigration doesn't in itself equate to racism .
it's just seeing this accusation chucked around so freely strikes me as not just annoying , often classist and ignorant, but dangerous in a number of ways . Firstly it strikes me as creating an atmosphere were a democratic vote can be gradually delegitimised by our betters and their opinion formers . Secondly it could well create an atmosphere were actual racists get it into their heads half of Britain actually support racist aggression . And that's not good at all .

 

[Sherman Tank]

Your "well-known fact" about policy formulation is about 30 years out of date, Shermy baby. "Independent" think-tanks are so much a part of the process that experts rarely get a look in, unless they're saying something that the political parties want to hear - for instance Giddens and his "Third Way". Ideas are rarely drawn from academe or business nowadays, and where they are, they're mediated in such a way as to be amenable to existing government aims, rather than promoting change.

I think you will find that think tanks tend to either directly employ specialists in different areas or will engage with experts through advisory or focus groups.