ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's not on the same basis as you originally implied, though. They're hirelings, with all the issues that implies.
Remainers: When are you taking to the streets?
- Thread starter chilango
- Start date
It's not on the same basis as you originally implied, though. They're hirelings, with all the issues that implies.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
"Maggie Thatcher was bad..."???
Bad, you mimsy whining liberal fuckwad???
Bad cess unto the 7th generation of your family line, you complete milksop!!!
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I don't think it was remainers-if you mean by that those leading the in campaign - making it an issue. There has been grumbling about East European immigration since they joined EU and came here . it's an issue was always going to come up.
Even in London it's an issue. I was talking to a Postman a couple of months ago in London. He blamed the Poles for under mining his job. Not the first time I have heard this kind of thing. Its not racism in just hating some one. But it's still upsetting to my Polish friends. The referendum brought it out into the open. Its more fear that free movement of people in EU provides a cheap labour force for business.The post man was an Asian Londoner.
When I was first in London in 80s there was a lot of outright racism in some areas. That's gone now. Young Londoners I find are very tolerant. London imo is unique.
I think it's the Out campaign that used immigration to get people to vote out.
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emanymton
A cat politely sat on the flaming gardener.
What exactly do you mean by this? I'm assuming you don't mean to say what it sounds like you're saying?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I have been doing a straw I poll of people I meet most days. Telling them there's a left out position. They feel here a vote out is supporting the right.
I had an interesting chat with the Italian who works in the coffee bar I use. They give me free coffee. Told him about this thread. He said in Italy they have problems with the right like here. That the out vote here bolsters the populist right in Europe. For all its faults he does not want to leave EU. And is sad that this country has gone down that path. He is also afraid that this could be first step to break up of EU. Which will only benefit the populist right. For Italian with there recent history that is an issue.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I meet a lot of people who come here from abroad to stay here a while and learn English. They often remark on how multicultural London is compared to where they come from. London is an international city with a large and diverse population. I am looking at it as an international city. Not comparing it with rest of country. Sorry London is my adopted home and I am rather biased.
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wheelie_bin
Well-Known Member
Immigration was used by both sides in my opinion; lies from Leave, conflicting statements from Leave (changing type of immigration etc) and discrediting Leave from Remain. According to the Ashcroft poll, had we had the referendum in January before the campaigning started, the outcome would have been about the same (very slightly higher Leave but both Leave and Remain have similar proportions of always known / known for a year). So, the result of all that focus from both sides as far as I see it was the effect of increasing discontent and division all round, while resolving nothing.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
To be continued
wheelie_bin
Well-Known Member
I'm concerned about why Gramsci got cut off mid-word, do we need to send help?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I could do with smaller fingers. My smartphone doesn't like my big fingers and cuts me off.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
wheelie_bin
Well-Known Member
I'm so glad, I was fretting that it would turn out I was nearest and I've already taken my boots off.I could do with smaller fingers. My smartphone doesn't like my big fingers and cuts me off.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
As far as I know the Italian 5 star movement couldn't possibly be described as far right but takes a Leave position .we all know about the Greek left and their position. Here in Portugal the communist Party is calling for leave . There was an interesting article which was critical of those who would describe them selves as left remain supporters in the Uk for only seeing the EU through a UK perspective . I will see if I can find it.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Remember this Wu Ming post calling Beppe Grillo's lot a right-wing cult Grillismo: Yet another right-wing cult coming from Italy | Wu Ming Foundation Bit above my pay grade
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
In this country I would say what’s happening in rest of Europe is not reported much or that well in mainstream media. Here lots of news about USA but not say Portugal or Poland. Nor at school did I learn much about Europe. Except this countries efforts in WW2. It was when the Poles and other East Europeans came here I realised how little I knew of Europe and started to read some history and borrow films off them.
So this leads to seeing Europe through UK perspective in general. If at all.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I think that if we had better coverage of current affairs in Europe the population would be more critical of the EU, not less. You will notice that most of the posters on this forum that took a close interest in the Troika's assault on Greece are not exactly Europhiles.
Yes. The oppressive function of the Left/Right dichotomy is being clearly revealed by this debate.
I'd say the majority of Remainers I've spoken to have arrived at their position because they believe it to be "Left-wing," and that the Leavers are somehow "Right-wing." But none of them can explain what that means in this context, probably because it doesn't mean anything.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I mean people like you. The nice remainers.
I think the opposite. If there'd been more honest coverage, maybe people would have voted differently.
"We" (the public, media, politicians) have never really 'front-paged' any EU wins. Simple small stuff like the abolition of roaming charges has been sideline news. Nobody has noticed, nobody cares. On the flip side, "straight bananas" is a dog whistle, headline material. People still believe that stuff. It was all over (most of) the red-tops. And the mail. And the Telegraph. So many publications, it had to be true?
newbie
undisambiguated
I don't know about unique but I do think that inner city London is different from the suburbs and countryside. And very tolerant. Is that a slur on anyone else? i don't know, it's up others to think about how tolerance works where they live. It's a description from an innercity London perspective.
There's a lot of churn in inner London, a lot. The longterm demographics of Brixton is that people who grow up elsewhere move here in their 20s, meet, have sprogs, stay until secondary school looms and then head off out of the city, to be replaced by their younger brothers and sisters. There's a large international element to the population, with incoming individuals who headed for the big city having coalesced into pockets of heritage based community. Of people born locally to stable, multi-generation Londoners, increasing numbers have been gentrified away from any realistic chance of living where they grew up, so when they leave their parents home they move away to live somewhere more affordable.
So I think it's fair to say that a substantially large proportion of inner London voters have actively chosen to live in a multi-ethic and multi-subculture environment, and that that proportion has increased substantially in the last few years. Chosen to live tolerantly, if you like. Perhaps that is reproduced to greater or lesser extent in other Remain city areas?
That is rather different from people who have chosen to live in more traditional places, where the cultural experience of international neighbours is much more limited and much more recent, and who (caricaturing) have seen Brixton on the telly and don't want what they see. There's no reason why they should and they don't. Continuing to caricature, we think they'd love it, they think they'd hate it and we worry that many of the reasons for rejecting what we value appear to be bound up with tolerance. Little of the Leave campaign, or the interviews with leavers, tried to dispel that worry. The word xenophobia has been on many local lips for weeks and it's not liked.
The attitude to tolerance coming from inner London is pretty unequivocal, I think. Attitudes from leaver areas are much more mixed.
Innercity Remainers were a minority, the ball is not in our court. If it was the word deportation would not be in todays news.
How has it come to this? Is an agenda like that really what leaver areas want? We don't know.
What does tolerance mean to the communities you live in?
"we", "they", yeh, I know. I've struggled for days to figure out how to express the innercity perspective I'm picking up from those around me. It's what I think is going on, and why, I'm not trying to speak for anyone else.
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wheelie_bin
Well-Known Member
I live in Brixton too and voted leave, because I have believed for a long time that the EU and the escalating wealth divide this encourages is not a good thing for this country. I think people who have chosen to live here should urgently be getting reassurance that they are wanted and they will not need to go anywhere. The EU is a political and economic construct, it is not the European citizens who I like and value. The constant mixing up of "Europe" with EU is actually enormously frustrating.
Also frustrating is the failure of many remain voters (or media or politicians) to accept that many leave voters are not being xenophobic when they talk about the politicians' failure to deal with the additional strains immigration has on overextended housing, school places, medical treatment and jobs (particularly pay and conditions). I keep seeing or hearing people say they understand, then cite the "but we like multicultural" again as though that is the answer. It's volume and the failed capability of our services that causes the issue, not xenophobia. (A few evil racists excepted of course, but they are the tiny minority.) It isn't my major issue with the EU, but I do understand it.
Also frustrating is the failure of many remain voters (or media or politicians) to accept that many leave voters are not being xenophobic when they talk about the politicians' failure to deal with the additional strains immigration has on overextended housing, school places, medical treatment and jobs (particularly pay and conditions). I keep seeing or hearing people say they understand, then cite the "but we like multicultural" again as though that is the answer. It's volume and the failed capability of our services that causes the issue, not xenophobia. (A few evil racists excepted of course, but they are the tiny minority.) It isn't my major issue with the EU, but I do understand it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What was that word I learnt the other day?
newbie
undisambiguated
Yes, when put that way I understand it too. But that's not the only way leavers have expressed themselves.
As well as deportation another phrase bubbling around in the news at the moment is hate crime.
Open letter from Chief Constable Andy Marsh & PCC Sue Mountstevens - Avon and Somerset Constabulary
Your first paragraph is spot on, that's exactly the sense of tolerance I meant. We voted differently but we share that, I think, along with the experience of repetition of but we like it like this. because this is where we live. I'd really like other people to tell us how tolerant their leaver areas feel.
newbie
undisambiguated
dunno, and I can't think of a particularly witty quip.
How do you perceive the mood in your neck of the woods? Are there grounds for our worries?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
take a walk down the kettering road (thats not actually in kettering, its in northampton) and you will find as diverse a crowd as a walk through brixton. Not a bad thing imo. London exceptionalism seems to view the outer limits as a monoculture. Never was, never has been. And shock horror, by and large we all get on with life together. Just the way it is. Pretty sure this goes for most places tbh.
as for my current town, I've spoke to nafia (remembers tito) and she says she's worried about what it all means for friends, she has permanent reisdence. Oh and Viz, brit indian, recons its a flash in the pan and business will continue as normal. Spoke to kelvin who said he didn't give a fuck and its pissing him off that everyones banging on about shit when he just wants to watch tv with his boy.
I'd expect to have seen more triumphalism from people, vile kettering (hated by lindsey lohan) was enjoying a day in the news. No one ever mentions us normally. There's a depressing amount of ED voters last time I checked but its not turned into nuremburg rallies outside the arts building (open by appointment)
as for my current town, I've spoke to nafia (remembers tito) and she says she's worried about what it all means for friends, she has permanent reisdence. Oh and Viz, brit indian, recons its a flash in the pan and business will continue as normal. Spoke to kelvin who said he didn't give a fuck and its pissing him off that everyones banging on about shit when he just wants to watch tv with his boy.
I'd expect to have seen more triumphalism from people, vile kettering (hated by lindsey lohan) was enjoying a day in the news. No one ever mentions us normally. There's a depressing amount of ED voters last time I checked but its not turned into nuremburg rallies outside the arts building (open by appointment)
newbie
undisambiguated
Of course. In the sense that I've found a short stretch on streetview that (apart from the curious lack of people) looks like an innercity area like those I've seen in sizeable places all over the country. Makes me curious about the wider local attitude to that area, tolerant or critical, and whether people who live further along, in what looks like more typical England, do much of their shopping there?
Good. Are you comfortable about the possibilities?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
of what? 'we' keep returning a ukipper in all but name. Thats not new, the mans been in the job since elijah was young. EU or no EU.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
you do if you want a bargain, if you want a specific veg not stocked in mainstream supermarkets, if you just like weird and wonderful little shops like the army surplus store with its stange owners and loyal border collie. We aren't segregated in northampton. There's an odd little church thats sprung up there recently, keep meaning to ask locals what teir deal is. If they haven't applied for change of use it might get shut down. They did that to a 'mosque' (prayer rooms above a shop basically) on the same road, cos you have to register.
newbie
undisambiguated
your phrase was nuremburg rallies, I said something about what worries us and mentioned attitudes to deportations and hate crime.
So, are you comfortable about with the mood of tolerance and inclusion in your particular ukip heartland? No worries?
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