Remainers: When are you taking to the streets?

[DotCommunist]

your phrase was nuremburg rallies, I said something about what worries us and mentioned attitudes to deportations and hate crime.

So, are you comfortable about with the mood of tolerance and inclusion in your particular ukip heartland? No worries?

oh not at all comfortable. Thing is I've lived and worked in this town for over a decade and the attitudes have remained the same. Some people safe as houses, some racist, some borderline. Everytime I've encountered the racism I've shut it down or fucked off. Let me give you an example: working at weetabix factory a guy started a rumour that 'the poles' were working un unionised and in the dark, the particular site on the wider site had electricity problems. Swallowed whole by some, strongly denied when I asked the polish lad I had a 'smokers friendship' with. The agencey tried to make them keep going in and operate heavy machinery by makeshift lighting. So says he and and I believed it. Agencies have ravaged the light industrial sector and are happy to pit worker against worker, Kettering Textiles had THREE agencies operating in the same warehouse while I was there. Thats competition to make agencies drive wages and conditions down. For everyone. Visceral dogshit through letterboxes death threat combat 18 fash styles, not seen it.

here's one:

'It was great when churches* were still here, everyone was doing alright then'

*shoemakers

 

[DotCommunist]

and the EU did nothing to stop post industrial decline.

 

[Gramsci]

I live in Brixton too and voted leave, because I have believed for a long time that the EU and the escalating wealth divide this encourages is not a good thing for this country. I think people who have chosen to live here should urgently be getting reassurance that they are wanted and they will not need to go anywhere. The EU is a political and economic construct, it is not the European citizens who I like and value. The constant mixing up of "Europe" with EU is actually enormously frustrating.

Also frustrating is the failure of many remain voters (or media or politicians) to accept that many leave voters are not being xenophobic when they talk about the politicians' failure to deal with the additional strains immigration has on overextended housing, school places, medical treatment and jobs (particularly pay and conditions). I keep seeing or hearing people say they understand, then cite the "but we like multicultural" again as though that is the answer. It's volume and the failed capability of our services that causes the issue, not xenophobia. (A few evil racists excepted of course, but they are the tiny minority.) It isn't my major issue with the EU, but I do understand it.

There is a complete lack of understanding of this from some people. Was chatting to a couple of people before vote who are Remainers. They were saying all these people from abroad "we" couldn’t do without them. I did say to them ( as a Remainer) the effects that you list in your post. They really didn’t understand what I was going on about.

They gave as an example the NHS. I said to them is it really that good we take people from Philippines for example. Its is not a wealthy country and trains its nurses only to have a country like this poach them. The shortage of nurses here is due to the fact not enough resources are put into training nurses in UK. This didn’t go down well either.

Leaving EU is not going to stop this. ( leaving aside argument that people should have right to freedom of movement as a human right.) What will happen is that business will lobby government to make sure post BREXIT UK will have access to labour "markets". Farmers are already moaning about this.

As UK was not part of the Euro the cuts and growing wealth divide are due to the policies of this Tory government. Its not due to being in the EU.

Listened to a programme about US and the appeal of Trump. Trump appeals to those who have lost out due to "Globalisation". Towns in US that used to have a few manufacturing business that provided secure jobs have know lost them. This has left a whole lot of Americans frustrated. Capital moved to China to find cheaper manufacturing workforce. Also listened to Mariana Mazzucato on radio on "Globalisation". Its the form its taken she says is the problem. Looks like at least some of the Out vote could be general feeling that how the system works does nothing for them. As in US.

 

[Gramsci]

The attitude to tolerance coming from inner London is pretty unequivocal, I think. Attitudes from leaver areas are much more mixed.


"we", "they", yeh, I know. I've struggled for days to figure out how to express the innercity perspective I'm picking up from those around me. It's what I think is going on, and why, I'm not trying to speak for anyone else.

I would also add this didn’t happen overnight. Taking our patch Brixton when the Caribbeans first came here they got a mixed welcome. Back in 81 riot a pub was torched that had a reputation of being racist for example. There was a lot of outright racism in parts of London when I first came here in 1980. Its taken a generation to get to where London is now. My personal experience is that living in London tolerance is something one learns. Its not a given.

Its taken years for London to get to be a tolerant place. What I could be seeing is the high point of London being tolerant. Tolerance is a fragile thing. The growing wealth divide due to this government, threat to social housing, central London becoming just for the rich are changing London for the worse for many. Possibly going to cause less tolerance of others. But not based on race but class. I don’t hear people blaming immigration that often but do hear people say things like "London is just for the rich now not for the likes of us.".

To add. I feel London as a tolerant place is something that many in London feel they have a personal investment in. Its not something imposed from above. Explains why there was a pride in Lambeth having big in vote.

The big In vote here in Lambeth was something a lot of people I know felt proud of. It was mentioned in press as one of the highest percentages for Remain.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I live in Brixton too and voted leave, because I have believed for a long time that the EU and the escalating wealth divide this encourages is not a good thing for this country. I think people who have chosen to live here should urgently be getting reassurance that they are wanted and they will not need to go anywhere. The EU is a political and economic construct, it is not the European citizens who I like and value. The constant mixing up of "Europe" with EU is actually enormously frustrating.

Also frustrating is the failure of many remain voters (or media or politicians) to accept that many leave voters are not being xenophobic when they talk about the politicians' failure to deal with the additional strains immigration has on overextended housing, school places, medical treatment and jobs (particularly pay and conditions). I keep seeing or hearing people say they understand, then cite the "but we like multicultural" again as though that is the answer. It's volume and the failed capability of our services that causes the issue, not xenophobia. (A few evil racists excepted of course, but they are the tiny minority.) It isn't my major issue with the EU, but I do understand it.

Part of the problem with regard to the issues you mention locally, have less to do with immigration than our local and national politicians would have people believe. The schools problem in Lambeth can be set at the door or successive Labour administrations in the nineties and noughties selling off schools for development, rather than mothballing them - as had been the policy of successive Education Authorities since the 1930s, as they understood how easily demographic projections could break down - and relying on neighbouring boroughs to take up the slack.

Housing, healthcare and employment also have contributory factors that although they're not helped by immigration, would still manifest - arguably almost as harshly, due to spurious "austerity" cuts - if immigration wasn't an issue. Immigration is a very easy scapegoat that has become all things to all politicians, so getting people to appreciate that voting "leave" doesn't mean that you're anti-immigrant is a bit of a hard slog in some settings. My own vote had nothing to do with immigration or race, and everything to do with assessing that ameliorating and/or reversing some of the effects and policies of neoliberalism would be slightly more possible out than in the EU.

 

[newbie]

To add. I feel London as a tolerant place is something that many in London feel they have a personal investment in. Its not something imposed from above.

 

[wheelie_bin]

Tolerance is a fragile thing. The growing wealth divide due to this government, threat to social housing, central London becoming just for the rich are changing London for the worse for many. Possibly going to cause less tolerance of others. But not based on race but class. I don’t hear people blaming immigration that often but do hear people say things like "London is just for the rich now not for the likes of us."

I agree with this, it's something I hear a lot, an almost unconscious divide among people, not so much class or have / have nots, but a recognition of where people are able to get to, more the can / cannots. We disagree on our attribution for the issues, I blame our government as well as EU, because neither are helping the country as a whole to manage the impact of the rise of big corporates through the innocuous sounding "globalisation". You blame only our government and feel the EU isn't aggravating matters. The irony of some reluctant remain voters complaining about the working class can't be lost upon either of us. What's left to say but hoping that the future will only extend that tolerance?

 

[wheelie_bin]

Part of the problem with regard to the issues you mention locally, have less to do with immigration than our local and national politicians would have people believe. The schools problem in Lambeth can be set at the door or successive Labour administrations in the nineties and noughties selling off schools for development, rather than mothballing them - as had been the policy of successive Education Authorities since the 1930s, as they understood how easily demographic projections could break down - and relying on neighbouring boroughs to take up the slack.

Housing, healthcare and employment also have contributory factors that although they're not helped by immigration, would still manifest - arguably almost as harshly, due to spurious "austerity" cuts - if immigration wasn't an issue. Immigration is a very easy scapegoat that has become all things to all politicians, so getting people to appreciate that voting "leave" doesn't mean that you're anti-immigrant is a bit of a hard slog in some settings. My own vote had nothing to do with immigration or race, and everything to do with assessing that ameliorating and/or reversing some of the effects and policies of neoliberalism would be slightly more possible out than in the EU.

Yeah, Lambeth have really been appalling at certain things (austerity = turf people out of their homes, turn libraries into gyms etc). We can't blame them for everything but they have certainly aggravated the issues with schools (as have central government with the idea of academies). Austerity as policy is central government + EU however.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah, Lambeth have really been appalling at certain things (austerity = turf people out of their homes, turn libraries into gyms etc). We can't blame them for everything but they have certainly aggravated the issues with schools (as have central government with the idea of academies). Austerity as policy is central government + EU however.

Apropos of nothing at all, one of our ward councillors attempted to blame austerity for lack of maintenance of social housing stock. She appeared surprised when told "housing repair and maintenance funding is via the Housing Revenue Account, which is ring-fenced. The only austerity cut is the entirely-manageable 1% per year off of council rents for 4 years from 2016-2019". Whether she's just stupid, or has been fed a line that she was willing to believe, I don't know.

 

[wheelie_bin]

I often wonder how stupid they might be. I don't recall the thread, but I commented somewhere else that a split of PLP might actually be great for Lambeth, give us a chance to clear out some of the deadwood.

 

[coley]

Bit pointless trying to have a sensible discussion with someone who can only see the world in such ridiculous black/white, chip-on-the-shoulder stereotypes. Oh well. Enjoy slagging off all those people you know nothing about, But you've seen the photos, right?

Don't need the photos, just have to read their opinions on various social media outlets, not very 'inclusive' are they?

 

[coley]

That man was living in a shoebox eating cold gravel at the bottom of a lake when oliver cromwell was in short trousers. you soft southern hipster fop.

I'll remember that crack, me bonnie lad

 

[coley]

i do..and occasionally minge.

eta

mind you coley probably calls it a " tuppence " or something.

Nae, refer to it as occasionally red.

 

[coley]

Can we please stop this Pure Northern Class Consciousness vs London Liberal Smun Cunts FC delineation. It couldn't be more stupid.
First of all 40% of Londoners voted Leave - millions of people. Then you have to make up a story in your head about who the people are on both sides of the vote and what their intentions are. The fact that many of the leave voters were well healed folk living in the home county bordering boroughs is just one of many complexities to this.

For a board thats meant to care about politics its really backwards. The referendum is complex and full of contradictions upon contradictions - so much discussion already but it seems the lesson drawn my some is Londoners are cunts Northerners are mint.

London is a cosmopolitan, multicultural city. Just us many Leave voters didnt really care about the EU but voted to kick the establishment, so many of those London remain voters didnt really vote about the EU but voted for Europe and their European friends and neighbours in it.

Sorry, I do humbly apologise, but, not having many European friends and the the rich cosmopolitan mix you wax so eloquently about,
So, we are left to draw on our experiences, a devastated North and a rich successful London and SE, that many in London and the SE voted leave suggests an even bigger and more complicated 'divide' ?

 

[coley]

By 'your lot' do you mean anyone on that march or just remain voter in general? 20/30s somethings? Do you know how old Ed is?

When is the last time you visited London? When you came here where did you go? What do you know about working class people here? What do you know about deprived parts of London? How do you account for the 40% of Londoners that voted leave?

I have spent a lot of time reading the accounts of Londoners who have had an even worse time of it than those of us here in the North, their problem is they have something of value, a housing estate, a park, a refuge, on sites worth millions, as opposed to us in the North.
The problem is, while since the 30s we have been constantly hammered, the perception, is that the from the North, the affluent South didn't give a monkeys regarding our suffering.
Now, down to blatant, and I mean blatant capitalism, some kind of national WC resistance is possibly emerging and that 'resistance' is also manifested in the 'leave' vote.

 

[Celyn]

I have spent a lot of time reading the accounts of Londoners who have had an even worse time of it than those of us here in the North, their problem is they have something of value, a housing estate, a park, a refuge, on sites worth millions, as opposed to us in the North.
The problem is, while since the 30s we have been constantly hammered, the perception, is that the from the North, the affluent South didn't give a monkeys regarding our suffering.
Now, down to blatant, and I mean blatant capitalism, some kind of national WC resistance is possibly emerging and that 'resistance' is also manifested in the 'leave' vote.

Wait, I'm not understanding why someone "has something of value" if they live on a housing estate on a site "worth millions", unless you mean owning a home that has suddenly become worth £££. Surely if you're renting, and the council or housing association begins to think it could profit very nicely by selling off the site and telling the tenants to bugger off somewhere else, go move shift, you're really in quite a precarious position?

Some kind of national WC resistance emerging would be good, but I don't think the leave/remain vote splits neatly as a poor/rich or left/right thing.

 

[newbie]

No one reported the celebrations and street parties that greeted Brexit up north.

Ignore the prophets of doom. Brexit will be good for Britain | Simon Jenkins
I was away so didn't know that and he's right, no-one reported it, google & twitter are silent sfaics. No doubt pubs were heaving but can anyone flesh this out a bit please, what happened?

 

[newbie]

I have spent a lot of time reading the accounts of Londoners who have had an even worse time of it than those of us here in the North, their problem is they have something of value, a housing estate, a park, a refuge, on sites worth millions, as opposed to us in the North.
The problem is, while since the 30s we have been constantly hammered, the perception, is that the from the North, the affluent South didn't give a monkeys regarding our suffering.
Now, down to blatant, and I mean blatant capitalism, some kind of national WC resistance is possibly emerging and that 'resistance' is also manifested in the 'leave' vote.

Funny thing, class. On the boss thread you're being taken to task for being a capitalist, on this one you're part of the working class resistance. That's not an attack, I'm (still) trying to understand what happens in communities that think and operate different to here. Can you be both simultaneously, in your local area?

 

[coley]

Wait, I'm not understanding why someone "has something of value" if they live on a housing estate on a site "worth millions", unless you mean owning a home that has suddenly become worth £££. Surely if you're renting, and the council or housing association begins to think it could profit very nicely by selling off the site and telling the tenants to bugger off somewhere else, go move shift, you're really in quite a precarious position?

Some kind of national WC resistance emerging would be good, but I don't think the leave/remain vote splits neatly as a poor/rich or left/right thing.

Could have put it better, your second paragraph sums up what I was trying to say much better.

 

[Celyn]

Actually I see what you mean now, that it IS a problem to live on a site that's worth a whole lot more when you are cleared off it. ("You" as in "one", obviously)

 

[ViolentPanda]

Sorry, I do humbly apologise, but, not having many European friends and the the rich cosmopolitan mix you wax so eloquently about,
So, we are left to draw on our experiences, a devastated North and a rich successful London and SE, that many in London and the SE voted leave suggests an even bigger and more complicated 'divide' ?

"Rich" and "successful" is bollocks, though. Sure, overall wealth and employment is concentrated in the south-east, but among the same proportion of dingbats, wankers and amoral shitcunts as it is in your frozen wasteland. Most of the "leave" voters I know, voted leave because they saw working class lives - via employment terms and conditions etc - continuing to go down the shitter under the EU, with even those member states with strong worker organisation being overwhelmed by neoliberalism. They naturally assumed that they might have a better chance of resisting neoliberalism if social policy wasn't answerable to another layer of bureaucratic interference after Parliament.

 

[coley]

"Rich" and "successful" is bollocks, though. Sure, overall wealth and employment is concentrated in the south-east, but among the same proportion of dingbats, wankers and amoral shitcunts as it is in your frozen wasteland. Most of the "leave" voters I know, voted leave because they saw working class lives - via employment terms and conditions etc - continuing to go down the shitter under the EU, with even those member states with strong worker organisation being overwhelmed by neoliberalism. They naturally assumed that they might have a better chance of resisting neoliberalism if social policy wasn't answerable to another layer of bureaucratic interference after Parliament.

Agree with that but with a small rider, we don't have that many "dingbats, wankers and amoral shitcunts" up here anymore, they have all moved 'doon sooth'
Sedgefield, for instance, is very rarely visited by a certain TB any more.

 

[Raheem]

Now, down to blatant, and I mean blatant capitalism, some kind of national WC resistance is possibly emerging and that 'resistance' is also manifested in the 'leave' vote.

I think this is a bit optimistic. People have been given an opportunity to express their nationalism and have taken it, which possibly they wouldn't have if they felt a bit more secure. Superficially, it might be seen as two fingers to the man, but it's letting off steam rather than anything you could call "resistance". Very few people voted leave because they understood the EU to be an oppressive force in their lives, even if they might have done.

You can tell this is how it is, IMO, from the demographics of how people voted. The differences between Scotland and E/W, young and old, white and non-white tell us that that class interest is not the main motivating force in the picture.

 

[newbie]

You can tell this is how it is, IMO, from the demographics of how people voted. The differences between Scotland and E/W, young and old, white and non-white tell us that that class interest is not the main motivating force in the picture.

The bit I've bolded is new to me, do you have a source please.

 

[Raheem]

The bit I've bolded is new to me, do you have a source please.

I'm too new to post links, but it's on Lord Ashcroft's website under "How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday and why".

White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.

 

[newbie]

I'm too new to post links, but it's on Lord Ashcroft's website under "How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday and why".

oops, tvm I read it and missed that bit

 

[smokedout]

Innercity Remainers were a minority, the ball is not in our court. If it was the word deportation would not be in todays news

The word deportation may not have been in the news but deportations would still be taking place. The government has repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands and is coming under serious pressure from their own side. In the event of Remain it is likely that there would have been more legislation aimed reducing the number of non-EU migrants, like May's nasty little move to kick out all non-EU citizens who don't earn £35,000 a year. As such a Remain vote would have almost certainly led to more deportations, whilst the EU migrants benefits cut would have economically cleansed many EU citizens from the UK.

Had all this happened, and Leave supporters accused Remain of racism, of making this happen, Remain would have exploded in liberal outrage. They would have insisted they are not responsible for what a Tory government does. But they would have voted for this consequence they barely noticed and didn't care about. This shows how cynically Remain have exploited racism in the campaign. Any racist consequences of Remain would not have been the Remainers fault, but all racist consequences of Leave must be 'owned' by the Leave voters.

 

[newbie]

The word deportation may not have been in the news but deportations would still be taking place. The government has repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands and is coming under serious pressure from their own side. In the event of Remain it is likely that there would have been more legislation aimed reducing the number of non-EU migrants, like May's nasty little move to kick out all non-EU citizens who don't earn £35,000 a year. As such a Leave vote would have almost certainly led to more deportations, whilst the EU migrants benefits cut would have economically cleansed many EU citizens from the UK.

Had all this happened, and Leave supporters accused Remain of racism, of making this happen, Remain would have exploded in liberal outrage. They would have insisted they are not responsible for what a Tory government does. But they would have voted for this consequence they barely noticed and didn't care about. This shows how cynically Remain have exploited racism in the campaign. Any racist consequences of Remain would not have been the Remainers fault, but all racist consequences of Leave must be 'owned' by the Leave voters.

? is that what you meant to type?

Surely the reality is that May's £35,000 nastiness will be extended to cover EU citizens as well?

 

[Raheem]

The word deportation may not have been in the news but deportations would still be taking place. The government has repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands and is coming under serious pressure from their own side. In the event of Remain it is likely that there would have been more legislation aimed reducing the number of non-EU migrants, like May's nasty little move to kick out all non-EU citizens who don't earn £35,000 a year. As such a Leave vote would have almost certainly led to more deportations, whilst the EU migrants benefits cut would have economically cleansed many EU citizens from the UK.

Had all this happened, and Leave supporters accused Remain of racism, of making this happen, Remain would have exploded in liberal outrage. They would have insisted they are not responsible for what a Tory government does. But they would have voted for this consequence they barely noticed and didn't care about. This shows how cynically Remain have exploited racism in the campaign. Any racist consequences of Remain would not have been the Remainers fault, but all racist consequences of Leave must be 'owned' by the Leave voters.

Except, in the account you give, the driving force is the fact that the government has "repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands". Something had to give, regardless of the outcome of the referendum, and even if no referendum had ever been held, so it's hard to see how a remain vote can be hypothetically ascribed as a cause.

 

[gosub]

The word deportation may not have been in the news but deportations would still be taking place. The government has repeatedly pledged to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands and is coming under serious pressure from their own side. In the event of Remain it is likely that there would have been more legislation aimed reducing the number of non-EU migrants, like May's nasty little move to kick out all non-EU citizens who don't earn £35,000 a year. As such a Leave vote would have almost certainly led to more deportations, whilst the EU migrants benefits cut would have economically cleansed many EU citizens from the UK.

Had all this happened, and Leave supporters accused Remain of racism, of making this happen, Remain would have exploded in liberal outrage. They would have insisted they are not responsible for what a Tory government does. But they would have voted for this consequence they barely noticed and didn't care about. This shows how cynically Remain have exploited racism in the campaign. Any racist consequences of Remain would not have been the Remainers fault, but all racist consequences of Leave must be 'owned' by the Leave voters.

Think we may have a backlash problem when we go down the EEA route. Which will require added vigilance at street level, politically will leave a democratic deficit for those on an immigration tip - which I fully expect UKIP to exploit. That's going to require far more careful handling than anything I've seen coming out out the remain side in the last few months. (though I wouldn't big up what were the Leave campaigns either)