Remainers: When are you taking to the streets?

[Pickman's model]

I don't really know what those faces mean, apart from the normal smiley one.

It means exasperation in this instance. Action for the sake of action is in this case at least superficial, of at best ephemeral importance, and would serve to undermine any better thought out initiatives.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Guess who sent me this?

London?

 

[emanymton]

Guess who sent me this?

Green Party?

 

[Pickman's model]

Guess who sent me this?

Change.org or 38 degrees

 

[chilango]

Green Party?

Yep. Caroline Lucas. Making a grab for the hand wringers before the LibDems mop them back up.

 

[Anju]

so eviscerating the Greek economy the right thing to do - and I suppose the eu's imposition of a technocratic government in Italy, against any sort of democratic norm, a grand idea too.

Trouble is that unless you can provide a viable alternative there is not point just moaning about things.

 

[Pickman's model]

Trouble is that unless you can provide a viable alternative there is not point just moaning about things.

Utter bollocks. Bilge. Do you think it was incumbent on people opposed to the poll tax to propose an alternative? Pisspoor.

 

[Anju]

It means exasperation in this instance. Action for the sake of action is in this case at least superficial, of at best ephemeral importance, and would serve to undermine any better thought out initiatives.

I did point out that I had no idea if it would make any difference. Well thought out? Seems like just another way of supporting inaction. It also helps prevent anger from boiling over if people feel they are doing something so no matter how fleeting that may be it is helpful.

 

[newbie]

Syriza definitely aren't an example of encouragement to anyone.
.

the situation there has changed quite a lot. Massive dissatisfaction with Syriza, huge feeling that the bailout caused damage and a sharp drop in the popularity of the Euro. It's now only supported by 53%, which is almost twice as popular as New Democracy, who lead the polls.

Poll Shows New Democracy 11.5% Ahead of SYRIZA | GreekReporter.com

 

[Anju]

Utter bollocks. Bilge. Do you think it was incumbent on people opposed to the poll tax to propose an alternative? Pisspoor.

If rhey had a better idea it might have meant that the government could not have got away with imposing more or less the same tax but with students excluded.

 

[eoin_k]

Trouble is that unless you can provide a viable alternative there is not point just moaning about things.

To start with, German and French banks could have been left to write off unsecured loans that they had recklessly issued, rather than liability for these bad debts being transferred to the Greek people.

 

[butchersapron]

To start with, German and French banks could have been left to right off unsecured loans that they had recklessly issued, rather than liability for these bad debts being transferred to the Greek people.

...and note, debts they hadn't contracted and had no say in the contracting of.

 

[Pickman's model]

If rhey had a better idea it might have meant that the government could not have got away with imposing more or less the same tax but with students excluded.

Better ideas were suggested e.g. local income taxes: but a government which imposes a tax the only other country to have - Papua New Guinea - was phasing out unlikely to have top ideas.

 

[Gramsci]

I think Remain becoming seen as an anti-racist vote probably played well for it in London. In fact the more I think of it the fact the public debate was so dominated by immigration, along with Leave being so associated with Farage/UKIP, probably most benefitted Remain. How many people said, even on here that they just couldn't stand to vote with Farage and Boris - that will have been a factor in London and other big urban centres.

If the referendum had been fought on a more broad range of issues then I suspect Remain would have been even more fucked. I wonder if they knew this, that they couldn't win from the right on immigration beyond a few dog whistles, but they might win by keeping the campaign focussed on immigration and presenting Leave as a racist vote.

My friends all saw In vote as the pro immigration one and vote for Out as a vote for Farage. I had friends getting in touch with me about going to the March for Europe. These are average people like me who take an interest but are not full on activists.

Immigration has been an issue for years since the Poles etc started coming. It was an issue that the establishment and media didn't take seriously. Imo it was an issue in the referendum as ordinary people were bringing it up.

It's an issue that divides people.

This weekend I have been telling my friends there is a principled left anti EU position. And asking them what they think. For them that doesn't have an appeal. They feel the EU referendum was pushed by some Tories and UKIP. It's a victory for them.

 

[Casually Red]

To start with, German and French banks could have been left to write off unsecured loans that they had recklessly issued, rather than liability for these bad debts being transferred to the Greek people.

Indeed. They were financially speculating in persuit of profit. They made...even knowingly..a very poor gamble. The gamble lost. But they insisted in collecting anyway . This is something Al Capone would have been too embarassed to do in a bookies . Lest it got gangsters a bad name .

The people who made those reckless..and indeed fraudulent...loans awarded themselves large bonuses for making them . And then had the Greek people pay through the nose for their reckless speculation . Bail them out . Same with Ireland.

The EU is a game completely rigged in these bastards favour. The way some of those hand wringers are carrying on you'd swear they owned a bank themselves .

 

[Anju]

To start with, German and French banks could have been left to write off unsecured loans that they had recklessly issued, rather than liability for these bad debts being transferred to the Greek people.

I did suggest writing off debts worldwide. The only fair way to do it.

 

[Anju]

Better ideas were suggested e.g. local income taxes: but a government which imposes a tax the only other country to have - Papua New Guinea - was phasing out unlikely to have top ideas.

I'm not saying I love council tax. Maybe people should have rioted for local income tax as well as against the poll tax. Kind of proves my point that just complaining about stuff without stating what you want is not effective.

 

[eoin_k]

I did suggest writing off debts worldwide. The only fair way to do it.

You seem to be missing my main point: this isn't just about not writing the debt off. It is about the EU transferring liability for it to the Greek state. This is about the Greek people being forced to bail out the finance industry of its wealthier neighbours.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

You seem to be missing my main point: this isn't just about not writing the debt off. It is about the EU transferring liability for it to the Greek state. This is about the Greek people being forced to bail out the finance industry of its wealthier neighbours.

Beware Germans bearing gifts.

 

[smokedout]

This weekend I have been telling my friends there is a principled left anti EU position. And asking them what they think. For them that doesn't have an appeal. They feel the EU referendum was pushed by some Tories and UKIP. It's a victory for them.

Duped by Boris, duped by Osborne. And still lost

 

[emanymton]

Yep. Caroline Lucas. Making a grab for the hand wringers before the LibDems mop them back up.

New it.

 

[emanymton]

My friends all saw In vote as the pro immigration one and vote for Out as a vote for Farage. I had friends getting in touch with me about going to the March for Europe. These are average people like me who take an interest but are not full on activists.

Immigration has been an issue for years since the Poles etc started coming. It was an issue that the establishment and media didn't take seriously. Imo it was an issue in the referendum as ordinary people were bringing it up.

It's an issue that divides people.

This weekend I have been telling my friends there is a principled left anti EU position. And asking them what they think. For them that doesn't have an appeal. They feel the EU referendum was pushed by some Tories and UKIP. It's a victory for them.

The Tories don't really seem to be celebrating all that much.

 

[Gramsci]

Duped by Boris, duped by Osborne. And still lost

Not duped. Nor do I think there are any winners. For the average person that is.

I have a friend who said some people she knew were swayed by promises of more money for NHS and controlling immigration if we got "our borders back". Which was duping people.

 

[Gramsci]

The Tories don't really seem to be celebrating all that much.

No they aren't. Having a referendum will not heal any of the rifts in the Tory party.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not saying I love council tax. Maybe people should have rioted for local income tax as well as against the poll tax. Kind of proves my point that just complaining about stuff without stating what you want is not effective.

It's a crap point and it's not proved

 

[brogdale]

They are of PR. Arts/Commerce. I know very little about them, other than the Secret Cinema '28 Days Later' event - a film inflated into a 21st century ghost train experience that garnered some press & social media traction earlier this year. Watch the film in a spooky environment while minimum wage workers lurch around the soft drinks concession in zombie costumes. Raaaaargh.



Bob Geldof. Sir Bob Geldof, keynote speaker - made the comment to the press at the end - dunno if it was made from the platform, but it was made because of his place on the platform.

So all those folk were on a march/demo organised by an businessman and his company?

 

[Anju]

You seem to be missing my main point: this isn't just about not writing the debt off. It is about the EU transferring liability for it to the Greek state. This is about the Greek people being forced to bail out the finance industry of its wealthier neighbours.

I have no problem with holding the banks to account for making poor decisions based on greed and ignorance. I think their days are numbered operating as they do now. Swapping bits of paper and upping the value of those with each deal then patting themselves on the back and taking as much as they can for themselves. They fear tighter regulation more than financial loss so go down that route.

I would support any move to help Greece
Trouble is you are missing out the Greek government. Nobody chose Greece at random and said lets screw them over. Their government has to shoulder some responsibility. I don't think you can just blame the EU and banks did not impose the loans on Greece. I would favour just extending rhe loans at interest, negative if need be, rates that kept the total to be repaid the same as if it was repaid on time. I recently finished paying off a loan at £20 per month after I lost my job 15 years ago and got into a bit of trouble. Couple this with increased EU funding for infrastructure, education and business.

Not sure if that is feasible but to simply write off the loans of one country is risky.

 

[Casually Red]

So all those folk were on a march/demo organised by an businessman and his company?

Extras .

 

[Pickman's model]

I have no problem with holding the banks to account for making poor decisions based on greed and ignorance. I think their days are numbered operating as they do now. Swapping bits of paper and upping the value of those with each deal then patting themselves on the back and taking as much as they can for themselves. They fear tighter regulation more than financial loss so go down that route.

I would support any move to help Greece
Trouble is you are missing out the Greek government. Nobody chose Greece at random and said lets screw them over. Their government has to shoulder some responsibility. I don't think you can just blame the EU and banks did not impose the loans on Greece. I would favour just extending rhe loans at interest, negative if need be, rates that kept the total to be repaid the same as if it was repaid on time. I recently finished paying off a loan at £20 per month after I lost my job 15 years ago and got into a bit of trouble. Couple this with increased EU funding for infrastructure, education and business.

Not sure if that is feasible but to simply write off the loans of one country is risky.

Tell you what, why not look into the past ten years in Greece and on your return there could be some interesting and informed discussion.

 

[brogdale]

Extras .

More like interns...extras usually get paid.